Rate discussion

Carl, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but I've been following you on here for some time now. I have noticed that you are very quick to blame the owner operator claiming that he does not care at all about fuel milage, and that is the primary reason that they go broke. If you follow the news regarding bankruptcies in trucking many of these are companies with hundreds of trucks, that have done everything from ordering full areodynamic packages, and have had their fleets governed on 62 miles an hour. They have fuel milage bonusus programs in place, and have done their best to control costs, yet they fail. Then I look in all the truck papers and see ads for bully dog, PDI, Full tilt performance, pittsburgh power and so on, and their primary customer seems to be the owner operator, the little guy with only one truck. And when I look around the truckstop parking lot, I notice most of the trucks with APUs or espar heaters seem to belong to owner operators. So when I see you beating up on the little guy who's just trying to put food on the table for his family back home, and is only asking for a fair shake at the table, it makes me wonder if your a crooked broker posing as a owner operator on here? MOST BROKERS ARE GOOD HONEST PEOPLE and I respect them, but there are a few bad apples out there.

It's not just 1 or the other, it's both cheap carriers and cheap brokers. Now if the price of paper, phone calls, fax machines and office space drops, do you as a carrier get to reap from the gain of the office man? probably not, and those costs dont even match yours as a carrier. When fuel drops, that is about the only time a carrier can make up lost ground.And just when it does you have license, taxes, mechanic and every tom dick and harry in line to get his.None of which have taken a cut in pay because it is now cheaper for him to get to work also,its cheaper to manufacture parts and to ship them. these others use it also. For instance a load we have done in the past has now dropped $10@ton. we dont haul it now for that reason, So it now pays $250 dollars less to do, so do you suppose that $250 got passed on to the consumer? probably not.So this is where cheap broker comes in, if he would pass this on to the consumer he could afford to buy more and stimulate the economy. Now the cheap trucker is going to still do it but bids it at 26 tons cause he can. so he carries an extra ton or ton and a half around now for FREEEEEEE. And if you keep talking about fuel milage and how great yours are doing, your going to be bidding on 10mph cause someone can. Some things are just better left unsaid, old young or just dummm. < yes i can spell, it was a yoke.

ON ALL THE NEWS FEEDS EVEN THE ONES ON THIS SITE IBREAD THAT ADM, CARGIL, CHS, ETC. ETC. ECT. MAKING RECORD PROFITS BUILDING NEW FACILITIES AND ON AND ON AND ON AND THE REASON FOR IT IS BECAUSE WITH THE RATES OUT THERE SOME CARRIERS ARE PRACTICALY PAYING THESE GUYS TO HALL LOADS FOR THEM. MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL.

No i am not if you would read the post you will see that i had seen a couple of post with the $1.20 a mile rates and asked the question how peaple are able to haul these loads and not go broke

Does that make sense to you now Bruce

I seen i got 8 dislikes on that post and i wounder if thats how some other people read it to

With all due respect, if anyone has issues hauling for brokers it's always a carriers option go customer direct which takes more sales, and negotiations skills than just calling a broker. Brokers are not our enemy. My business is more healthy than it's ever been. It's all about building relationships, and going the extra step to differentiate ourselves from the carriers who provide sub standard service.

Mr Johnson more power to you, I hope you will get that up to 8mpg. But as Mr Wiseaman said something's are better left unsaid. You can obviously haul cheaper than the rest of us, and you can probably loose enough weight that you can haul 27 ton. So let's broadcast that out there and see if we can get the rates all based on 8mpg and 27 ton.

My customers already know that my operating costs are lower than many carriers. They also know I've been providing quality service for some time now so actually it's been easier to negotiate better rates. I don't care if the whole world knows my truck gets great fuel milage.

Let me say this, and I hope EVERYONE understands where I'm coming from... This country has become a country based on PURE GREED. Most people for that matter could care less of the responsibilities that you have as a small business owner like myself or anybody for conversational purposes. This market and every market for that matter is full of thousands of people that are looking to make money... Some of us need $2.50 plus a running mile and some are glad not to be working at McDonalds and will haul for $1.50 a mile.. I've found that this world an I conception of everything that we do is based on our own PERSONAL preference. I need $2000.00 a week (NET) to stay afloat but the guy down the street with the wife working as a nurse may only need $1000.00 a week net.. so my point is that, the rate thatanything of this hopper rate should pay should at least start out at $2.00 a mile... and this is only based on how far your toting it and what the product is... Personally, $2.00 a mile is not enough to haul anything in a hopper because we have to put forth physical labor to unload it.... Which brings me to my next point.. Which brings me to a scenario... Let's say a load comes up that pays $1200.00.. forget about all of the other details but it goes 700 miles from pickup to delivery... Now, I personally AIN'T hauling it... but for the guy that has $47.00 in his bank acccount and about to go under, this load is just enough to KEEP him afloat... Eventhough, it's only paying $1.71 a mile... He's BROKE, so this to him/her is better than NOTHING!!.. see my point? So the matter is wheter or not you are in the financial position to turn down loads that YOU feel are not worth it... His profit margin may be anything after $1.07 a mile where mine may be $1.90 a mile... He has a paid for house... a paid for truck... a paid for SUV and so on... Whereas yo have a Pickup truck note, a boat note, a atv note, a big truck note, and you wife doesn't work... so it all comes down to how much do YOU need to survive or to feel that your making money.... Fellas, what we have to face is the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of OTHER people doing exactly what we're doing.. EVERYDAY.. and these brokers, shippers, etc. know that if they thow the worm out there then somebody is gonna bite... if not then they'll raise the rate.. However, most of the time somebody is willing to do what you WON'T do!! this will remain the same until you and I die... TRUST ME!!!

There in lies the problem, you are spouting off operational costs that many would like to keep confidential. Because these forums are not closed for just "Our Side" of the business to see. Now you have given brokers and shippers the idea that maybe everyone should be getting 7.2 MPG. I would venture to guess you would not get that same mileage say in Pennsylvania, where nothing is flat. But now you may have planted the seed in some broker or shippers head that their carrier should also be getting 7.2 MPG.

I am embarrassed to say I actually thought that most of these brokers as well as commercial firms, ie. Cargill, ADM, etc. all paid everyone the same rate for the same work?? Posted rates for posted jobs mean nothing?
It would appear that in this day of instant information via cell phones , laptops, etc. that some form of truckers union is the only solution. But that being said I sure admit this is a very frustrating situation and the phrase "independent" trucker didn't come out of the clear blue.

I hope those numbers help to show the trucker what the shipper would have to pay. Beings some here like to spout the truckers cost. Although it really does not matter because anybody with a calculator or excel spreadsheet could figure out exactly what it cost to put a truck down the road. The trick though is managing the drivers as well as the loads.

If the shippers have a hard time managing their dock workers, imagine how hard they are going to have it with truckers. LOL

Good comment Scott

A secondary thought. Everyone keeps telling me the rates are low because the fuel prices are down. They are failing to keep track of the increase in all of the other expenses. The big one they are not looking at is the increases we are having to put into our drivers. I don't even know where the ciling is going to end up on drivers, but I don't think that wages are going to stop the upward climb soon.
Talking with Fed Ex owners. They are commitedto contracts, so EVERYONE of them that have come throught the shop that have multiple units now have to have a unit that sits as a backup because the newer trucks are so unreliable. That has to hurt your bottom line.

Art Pfluger

Bruce my friend, thank you for this post. I truly hope that more drivers read this and stop taking these crap paying loads. As a broker I hear it from both ends, I will not accept loads from customers unless it is paying at least $2 mile TO THE TRUCK, that means I get my cut in there also, I am ALWAYS open with the drivers and will tell them what I am making and what they will make, I spent 20 years in the Army and believe in honesty, integrity, and loyalty. I fight for higher rates from our customers so that I can pay the driver what they should be, I will go out and put the puzzle pieces together for the driver to make sure they have a reload and keep them moving for me. Yes, there are times that one rate is less than it should be (in my opinion) but the over all miles (running miles, not loaded) should average out to at least $2/mile. Not all brokers will be open about it, but my take on it is we are all here to make money and I would rather be up front and honest about it than try to scam people on it, you get a bad reputation and it will come back around eventually and you will never have any customers or drivers call you again!

I have been trying to fight these cheap rates that seem to be going around lately but there is always some driver that will go out there and take those loads even if they don't pay well or even pay enough to really run your truck! I talk to a lot of drivers and customers every day, the drivers and I have this conversation a LOT lately and the customers just tell me that is all they can manage because THEY didn't build in enough frieght when makeing the sale to the end user or aren't willing to cut their margins any. I have done loads where I make a $1 a ton and that basically pays for me to do the paperwork and phone calls and making sure I can get that load again in the future to keep the driver moving and keep business. I have done loads where I make $.01/BU on a load for the same reason.

In the end, IF you are going to use a broker (and I am not saying I am the best one out there either), use one you can trust and is open with you. We are all out here trying to put food on the table and make things work.

We are a small, midwest hopper company and between myself and the owner of the company have 60+ years in the trucking industry. Last year was the best trucking year I have EVER seen in my life and then comes Christmas and we go directly in the tubes! I respectfully disagree with the gentlemen who say it is not the fault of the brokers! Look at where we are right now, We have brokers who have come into the market that we have hauled out of for years but brokers have gone in ad cut the rates in less than half. I do not mind competion, in fact I think that competition is good for the industry but when brokers can not seem to do simple math and don't take pride enough in what they do to make sure that everyone involved with your loads is able to keep hauling, we are in trouble. I know that the main objective is to make money but if you take loads without negotiating a rate with which the broker can take his share and the trucks can make enough money to survive, sooner or later you yourself will hurt your business or cost yourself a bunch of money by having to fufill your commitmets that you made, or turn back loads you can not get moved, either of which is not a good thing!

Like I said we are a small fleet and are totally a service based company, we have been around for a long time and plan on beeing here when this really bad time is over! I think if the Brokers and Carriers work together we can all make a good living but if we have rogue brokers gobbling up all they can get for whatever price they can get them for, just so their company can get the commission, the rates will not get any better! Just so you know, there are now loads from central ND to to St. Paul MN. for 1.08/mi. I personally would not even put the load in the wagon for that price!.

My last statement is probably going to be unpopular but fuel needs to go up! We need crude oil prices on the rise as well as the price of commodities to go up! Lets get back to the good times where we can make a living and not cut each others thoats!

Thank you
Keith
ET Trucking.

First to Brent West.... We have hauled for you and find your operation without reproach. I have no information to say one bad thing about CT Freight. You paid as you said, load details were as stated.
Mr.Hamilton... I agree with the statement that you shouldn't back door an honorable broker. But in my opinion it shouldn't matter whether it is a broker or what if they are up front and honorable I don't want the work if the person paying the bills does what they say. I also know that brokers get a bad rep for coming in and cutting rates. Usually it is a situation where for that broker they want that load to put with something else as it completes the circle and if you are the little person in the way they don't care. The point is we need to have more compassion for each other and do more research before we hurt some other guy that is just like us or maybe littler.
One thing that bothers me right now is some of the shippers with these crap rates are people that I have had respect for in the past. While I know we can't call people out by name, they now who they are. They forget the worm turns and I can only hope that KARMA will get even with them.
I can't make dime under $2 per mile. We deadheaded a truck out of Colorado this week to the panhandle rather than mess with the grain rates. WHat the F*&^k are you shippers thinking. Everything points at plenty of corporate profit for you guys. You want to kill me off? What the hell you gonna do when you need trucks?
I've been waiting since 1979 for those cheap freight guys to go broke. I'm still standing for my own reasons, but the struggle at my age is getting harder.
BROKERS... There are some amazing people in that maligned job. I have been fortunate to know some very special people that are brokers, but it is because they tend to be small and or family operated. For all I know Brent is a mega broker, but I have been very "VOCAL" about he TQL's and UTI and other mega brokers trying to get in, they will only make the situation way worse. Especially TQL, they are really pushing things around, but what is scary is the people on another thread that seem anxious for the opportunity to try thes guys out.
As usual I have no answer. It is probaly illegal to beat the crap out of someone for loading this cheap junk and I have no other remedies at this time. My best suggestion is supporting the small brokers and shippers that have some resemblence of a heart.

Art Pfluger

and this is why i use companies just like yours, well said.

Please keep in mind the carrier has to lower their rates everytime you do......

I am hoping the rate thing that is going on now is just a combination of falling grain prices that have cost many of the large commercials as well as the smaller regional and local elevators money through hedging losses or other such marketing mistakes. Combine that with the fact that last years wheat crop was just overall not that good.
In some cases it was a complete disaster. Meaning the bulk of the grain that needed to move prior to harvest has been moved. The rates I am seeing are the "we don't care if it moves or not" rates.
I am hoping harvest will bring the return of reasonable rates. I don't think anyone in this chat room got in this business thinking they would get rich so maybe it's time to take that vacation before harvest starts down south.

Jeff,
You and I don't know eachother and haven't talked before, but it would probably be pretty funny to have us on this subject in the same room at the same time. Some days (most days lately) it seems like I'm the only one who believes in NO anymore, and I always have told my wife I'd rather go broke at the house than give the shipper the satisfaction of getting their freight moved as part of the deal. But I just got in from 12 days out, and this deal isn't funny to me anymore. I sat empty 3-4 working days out of that 12 because I couldn't find anything I felt like I'd come out on. The freight volume just isn't there, so neither is the rate to haul it. Worse yet, it feels to me like we are seeing the freefall scenario as in early 2009 when everyone panicked and drove the rates to nothing. I worked 4 days in January of '09 because where I lived then there was absolutley nothing to do. I actually quit trucking for a year and a half and helped a freind farm until things straightened up some. But here we seem to be again, just a few years later. The script hasn't changed, only the actors. Most folks in this business have quite a bit of debt considering the relatively low profit potential, and not enough backbone considering what is at stake not only for them but for THE WHOLE INDUSTRY. If you take a load that you know you'll lose money on because you think the truck has to move, you're just dragging out the pain and suffering-death is still comming, only slower. Hopper freight seems like the last sector that is still really influenced by single truck and small fleet owners with their own numbers on the door, working with relatively small brokers and traders. What about it guys! I still hoped to do this another 10 years or so, but if we don't start making some decisions toward that end instead of beating eachother up to haul for nothing...

No is the most powerful word in the English language. If more would use it than they would find out. Just think they are so used to being told no to everything that they have forgot how to use the word themselves.

Tom, a reason that most can't say no is because they are slaves to the drug(miles). How did they become this way? By doing it the good old american way. Instead of saving money and buying with cash, they finance and end up slaves to the debt. The good book says that the borrower is the slave to the lender. So slaves can't say no unless they choose to revolt against their masters and are willing to loose everything to gain back their freedom.

Now borrowing money to make money is ok, as long as you don't place to much of a burden upon yourself or your business. I for one believe and enjoy my freedom to say no. I don't need any one customer's freight more than another, I have found that the shipper/broker will often times try to lure you in with the promise of more drugs (miles) for less money. That in effect is you paying them more for the drugs(miles). Another trap they use is to promise you the contract if you go out and accrue more debt for equipment to do the job for you. The only way I would do this, is that they put into contract that X# of loads at X# dollars, for X# years. I would have to make enough profit to justify the debt. Otherwise I just say no thank you, I would just as soon keep it like it is, here today gone tomorrow.

So my advice to all is to:
1. Keep you debts to a minimum. (That $50,000 diesel pickup you just bought is not making you any more money than my $3000.00 one)
2. Quit acting like you are desparate (You give up all the power in negotiating when you are desparate)
3. They need you more than you need them (You can always park your equipment and get a JOB doing something else for a little while)
4. Quit cutting the rates just to get the drug (miles)
5. Miles do not equal revenue
6. Become mercenaries (Here today, gone tomorrow, highest price gets the truck)
7. Don't believe or swallow any of the lures that the shippers/brokers are using to hook you into their long term one sided deals.

If you don't stand up for yourself, than don't expect others to stand up for you as well.

The more I do this the more I realize that I as a small business owner am just a tick on the big mega-carriers back and it is the governments job to exterminate me and all the rest of us desperately clinging to hang on. I hate to use names or by no means slander anyone but when I see j.b.hunt trucks pulling dumps in and out of customers I worked hard to get I start to feel sick because I know its only a matter of time before were gone. I cant buy a thousand trucks at a time and get them at a fraction of the cost like they do so how do I compete? My grandfather was an independent and was my inspiration to get into this business. He retired in 1990 and told me then that the government only wants 3 big carriers on the road and from what I'm seeing he was right. I like the rest of us am not getting rich and am seeing the bottom drop out below my feet but what do we do? No only gets a point across, it however does not get a paycheck across. I am completely with you guys with saying no to cheap freight in hopes that a message will be sent but the only reception I am seeing is the mega carriers swooping in for the kill. I honestly do not believe that there is a fair market for us anymore.

Paul Harvey once said that capitalism in the absence of biblical morals and values will one day become Communism.

Just a question slowing down gives you less loads a year so did slowing down actually add to your bottem line with the decrease in revenue?

Lansing Grain offered me $1 this morning. We've had our hoppers parked for a few months. Just waiting on the herd to thin so we can spin the tables back in our favor.

You are exactly right, <sub>Until the exports start rocking again and the piles dwindle down the rates for hoppers will remain low. I might suggest you look for an alternative to keep busy until it picks back up.

For those of you that are having a hard time grasping this. Here is a link for you to check out, you can see the falling prices of the commodities we haul, as well as the export ratios.

Commodity prices: http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/

Export ratios: http://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=corn&graph=exports

When you take a look at the numbers you will see that if you don't have buyers than the sellers can't sell. If the sellers can't sell the haulers have very little to haul.

You better diversify, if you can.</sub>

I'm sorry but just because the price of whatever product has went down that doesn't mean that the carrier can haul it cheaper to help you offset your loss. It cost the same to move 25 ton of 10 dollar a ton material as it does 100 dollar a ton material 100 miles.

Mr.Hayes has it right. The profit or value of the product has nothing to do with my cost to move it.
Best brokers are the ones that call you up when they are bidding something large and ask for your opinion. That doesn't mean they are going to see it my way, but at least I have an opportunity to understand their approach. These brokers realize that we have to work together, which means more than a onesided approach.
These rates that I have experienced and others in the $.80-$1.00 per mile are rediculous. That is not worth putting in a trailer.

Art Pfluger

I can't see anyway to justify hauling at these rates. Burning up fuel,tires,brakes,and adding miles to the truck, with no way to cover those cost will catch up to every single truck running at these prices; it is just a matter of time. I shut down 1st of May. Will that change anything? NO! <BUT> If everyone scheduled their VACATION for the same week or two, and there was no one to answer the phone for any load, now that might just change somethings. Just saying, everyone takes some time off, lets just do it at the same time and see if anyone notices. How many plants that we all have sat at for hours to get loaded and or unloaded ( and they couldn't care less) would have to shut down if no load came in for a week? There is a reason these plants aren't running their own trucks. Rates cound more than double and it would still be less than 1/2 of the cost for them to haul it them selves. No one wants to take on the liability of hauling their own products, some have to. Ask Wal-mart how that NewYork incident added to their cost of hauling their freight. Will it hurt Wal-Mart <NO> but how many Wal-marts are out there?-- THE RISK --Is what each of us take on for each and every load that we haul, and I submit that it is more expensive and worth more than any fuel cost. Lets all hope rates get back to something reasonable soon, be safe out there. PS-- I'm thing the first two weeks of June or July. Lets ALL take some time to be home and just play!!

i learned a long time ago,IT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE, i've been doing this since 1978, i had to change to adapt to the industry.i bought my last new truck in 2000,trailer is 2002..i don't have a pickup truck, i also have no dept, i run like crazy from middle of may to end of feb..then i sit at home do repairs,worry about next season,some how always works out..in the past things didnot work this way..i learned to work out of my own pocket and do without things i really don't need..the good lord willing 2 more years and i will be done..it ain't easy,but it can be done..we can talk it to death , but the simple answer is, if it ain't paying enough don't load it.

In my operation with maintainance cost at 75 cents per mile, and fuel at $2.80 per gal. averaging 6 mpg at 70 mph, with a $2.00 per mile rate the optimum speed for max daily wage is 76 mph with a daily wage of 555.96. At 1.75 per mile the optimum speed drops to 70 mph with a $373.33 per day rate. At $1.40 per mile the optimum speed is 55 and the profit per day is $152.17. Any speed above or below this will cost you money.

Good commentary Shedrick. You are 100% right, that is why my company is a mercenary trucking company. All of our customers know this, we go whereever the customer is willing to pay the rates that match both of our needs. We are not the cheapest but we get the job done that nobody else seems to want to do. Customers do not mind paying a higher rate for better service, but for the long run they will always use the guy that is cheaper. That is just the way business functions. So we may be working with one customer for one load and another for the next, or we may be working for one customer for three weeks and another three weeks later. I found out very quickly that the shipper/broker will promise the moon and stars for their supposed dedicated freight, but as soon as you get your equipment in posistion for them they will then inform you that so and so will do it cheaper and want you to come down to that rate as well. Well I decided not to play that game and decided that we would just take on the problem loads that nobody else wanted and ask for more money doing that. So far that has worked very well for my business, and I don't have customers trying to play the other guy is cheaper game with us, because the know that my answer will always be "Why are you talking to me than?" You knew what our rates were when you called, just go ahead and let the other guy haul it. When the other guy messes up and they call us to come and fix their problem, then the price really goes up.

Sorry guys, that is the way things worked when I built custom homes, so I figure that it would work here as well. This is the basics of it all: Less miles, less work, for more money. What is not to like about that business model? Our trucks hardly ever run more than 2000 miles in a week, most weeks they are doing about 1500 - 1800 miles. No I am not going to state the revenue they make because most of you would not believe it anyways. More miles does not equal more revenue.

Alfred, Why is it SOOOOO hard to get people to understand working smart not hard. Miles do not equate to profit.

Art Pfluger

Just called on a load, close to home to load and several miles of hauling. Sounds good right? Wrong, the rate was low and when I ask if that was as good as it gets, I was told that they were having no trouble getting this covered.
Oh well, the yard need mowing!

It is very interesting reading all of the posts regarding rates. I have been on both sides of the fence. Asset for 3 years and Broker for 20 years. I am one of those few that understands both sides. It is difficult to run a trucking company to begin with but then to have to try and negotiate a rate that is going to pay for all of the vehicle crap and pay the driver a living wage, and then on top of it make some money for the company it is even harder. Then on the broker side you have a customer who gives you the freight and expects the cheapest rate possible yet we are tasked with finding a truck that is willing to take their freight so cheap and leave a little on the bone for us to make a living. I personally do not think the problem is with brokers or asset companies - the problem lies with the customer. They need to be educated that freight costs are going to rise as the cost of everything rises. It is a law of supply and demand. It costs more for tires, for fuel, wages have increased, etc. and customers want to continue to pay 1990 rates. I want to give my carriers that I use a fair rate but I give them the best I can sometimes which isn't always great because of the rates given by our customers. I have fired customers because they are unwilling to pay fair rates and I just have better freight that I can find for carriers and pays them accordingly. I also try to pitch it to the customers that basically you get what you pay for and if you want quality service then you need to pay at the bare minimum a descent rate - does not always have to be premium but fair. Which in turn brokers and carriers need to be fair and know where the freight is and isn't and where to charge more and where to charge less. It is a game and is definitely seasonal. Very frustrating but still love this business!

For van or reefer freight, believe me, you almost can't live in a worse place than Denver/Greeley for rates. The front range is a dead zone, lots of trucks in and not much going out. In 25 years of doing this stupid business the only decent paying stuff I've ever gotten out of there was beer to Williston or Minot, ND.....out of one dead area to another.

I used to make about 2 to 4 calls and get reloaded and still keep my deadhead below 10%. Now I'm making 20 to 50 calls and have more deadhead miles. I refuse to haul cheep. The way I see it if it costs me $1.75 to keep a truck rolling and I take a load for $1.25 I'm paying the shipper .50 cents a mile to haul his freight for him. Then I may as well just give him the money and not have all the headaches.

Dean, how did you convert your truck, very curious

Bruce

Very nice comparison. I have looked at this a lot of ways and how we are getting the shaft but hadnt thought of that yet.

Am I getting this all wrong ? Am I not understanding something? Cuz I could give a shit less if u are getting 8 mpg and or ur legal to haul 30 ton. Why would you want to do it for less than the normal guy getting 5.5 or 6 mpg and hauling 25 ton. If you are getting x amount per ton, I wouldn't want to do it for any less. Why is everyone in competition to see who can do it the cheapest, and who can haul the most? I've seen people load and brag how much they got on, 26.5 ton, load payed on a flat rate 23 ton load. 5 or 6 of you Cowboys do that knocks the 7th one out of a job. If your getting 7or 8 mpg good you stick that extra $ in your pocket. If your hauling an extra ton good for you stick that extra $ in your pocket. But quit cutting each other's throat and let's work together!!!

Bruce you said it better than me.....Go figure...really though thanks for making the thought more easy to understand.

Art Pfluger

Got out 3 years ago and miss you all. Just don't miss losing my ass on every load. Doesn't sound like it's any better for sure.

I have a theory that is going to ruffle some feathers. Bid high and back it with reputation. If you have an honorable reputation with your customers and they know to expect good service most will be willing to pay the extra as long as you are fair with them. It has worked for me. My customers know that when my trucks are on a job it will be done with professionalism and in a timely fashion.

Got these rates e-mailed to me this morning off of this site. Says he has no problem getting these moved. I figured them at 23.5 tons and the $ amount is the per mile rate.
These are stone loads. He got al kinds of mad when I told him they were extremely cheap.



Graysville, AL, to Jacksonville, FL $34/ton $1.59
Graysville, AL, to Palm Coast, FL (x2) $36/ton $1.51

Phenix City, AL, to Jacksonville, FL $26/ton $2.09
Phenix City, AL, to Palm Coast, FL $28/ton $1.86

Montgomery, AL, to Jacksonville, FL $30/ton $1.90
Montgomery, AL, to Palm Coast, FL $32/ton $1.74

Antonito, CO, to Jacksonville, FL (no hoppers) $114/ton $1.55
Des Moines, NM, to Palm Coast, FL (no hoppers) $116/ton $1.71

I agree 100% with you Dale. This website hurt the bulk industry. What used to be the "Biggest little secret" in trucking has now been exposed to the mega brokers and mega carriers.

Amen

According to some of the folks here we don't need higher rates. We just need Class 8 trucks that get 22 mpg city and 39 mpg highway. Its you're fault if your truck doesn't get at least 20mpg, and don't you forget-- brokers are our friends.

With all due respect Alfred, anyone that needs you to show the math has no business owning a truck.

Be careful where you move to in Texas. I been wearing water wings and snorkel gear to do my yard checks for 2 weeks now. 8^)

Maybe I better wait on the Texas move than. They might jack up the prices and call the flood zones beach front property. Hope your not having to swim to hard to get to your rig. LOL

They're selling it for beach front alright but don't worry about the price.

TQL and CH Robinson are brokering the land sales for $1.15 per acre and JB Hunt is lending their 53' vans when you move.

They're selling it for beach front alright but don't worry about the price.

TQL and CH Robinson are brokering the land sales for $1.15 per acre and JB Hunt is lending their 53' vans when you move.

You might want to include a valet, to park the trucks for them, as you will run out of curbside parking. LOL

Now wait a minute, that may be a business model that works. I could hang out at the Flying J, that is in front of my property. Offer my backing services to the greenhorns at $10 a pop. Back 5 trucks an hour in, that would be $50.00 per hour for three hours each night. $150.00 a day for 5 days a week. $750.00 per week for 15 hrs work. I think I could make that work, I will call my insurance agent and find out what are the risk. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Alfred if you'll let me know when you intend to file the $10 rate I'll put in a rate of $6.50 or maybe even cut rates to $4.25 just to exercise my rights under the free market system. Then I'll get on the forum immediately to whine about not making any money as a parking lot attendant. I dont know who to contact to get our insurance and bond requirements raised but I'll keep sending emails to Washington until I can get us lower profits and more safety regs. Maybe ATA will help. They usually get us plenty of new rules to hinder work flow and are able to drive cost of business up.

Well shucks if you will do that for me, than I will make sure to pay the drivers to park their trucks for them at $3 to $2 so we can park more trucks. I always like working for free and really like paying others to work for them. That is the Tom Sawyer way, and lets remember he was from Missouri as well. Thats how all of us in Missouri do it, we believe in paying others to do the work for them. LOL

Who needs a non-compete clause to screw each other, as long as we knwo that we are doing it in the first place I feel that all is well. Make sure to tell those boys in Washington to raise that bond up to $25 M so that only their rich buddies can own truck parking companies. Yep don't forget the big boys at the ATA they will have their newbies overthere figuring that it would make a perfect training evironment and they will charge them $10,000 for their backing school. LOL

See how everyone just ZOOMED past your post it only conforms what we have been saying for some time certain brokers know absolutely nothing about the business please explain how bulk haulers are gone "expand your horizons" pulling cars in hopper bottoms, end dumps, walking floors, and tanks please reply back we all want to know how and we all know auto hauling is the first industry to tank when the economy is doing bad.

They will be by the time we unload them 8^)

back in 1997 I used to run cars Ford actually from St Louis to Tacoma Washington once a week 9 carload paid exactly $10,000 now tell me how that still pays the same your full of s*** about car hauling making good money that s*** only pays $2.50 to $3 per mile if you can get auctioned cars take your car hauling s*** to some other site

Marisol your command of the language seems, in MY opinion, seems to mirror your understanding of our industry segment....Your a F$%&&5 ...IDIOT..You are not reading the threads very carefully as most of us have a very good grasp of ALL segments of trucking. Believe me I know what my people and equipment can do and NOT do. I have a car trailer to rival car trailers. There is very little money in cars unless you are in Reliables league and can haul real real good stuff. Get back under your rock...

Art Pfluger

Let's not forget that he may have read the posting on the flatbed side of things. I don't think he realized this conversation started on the bulk side of things. I wondered the same thing when he first posted about the cars. As far as the cussing matter, it is hard for those that are passionate about their living to not use a little language from time to time. I try to keep my language as tame as possible, but alas sometimes I lose it. I guess I need Cpt. America around to remind me. LOL

Marisol strikes me as a ladies name hence my concern, fair enough, passion is good. but i myself have over 75 carriers on my books and i have noticed the guys that think ahead already made the switch to hauling reefer or open deck which indicates to me some companies have been paying attention. Her/His suggestion is not so far fetched when you see the state of the american dollar and no one internationally wanting to buy at the current exchange rate. i think the companies that diversify with their equipment are smart and if you don;t think so, ask me how many oil field services companies i have heard from in the last 2 months that want to start hauling grain and pulse crops. To me, it makes sense to go where you can keep your drivers busy and not lose money. These bulk carriers who diversify will be back with me once the new crop starts moving but as i said before, what is the point of getting upset when there is no commodity to move because the cost of the goods does not warrant good business to buy? if someone wanted to sell you equipment at 25% more of the cost than 6 months ago, would you be so willing to spend your precious capital asset money? of course you wouldn't. if a shipper in america or canada for that matter has to sell his goods for less money, how do you figure they will be able to give you more money? i guess i look at both sides as they are both internal and external customers to me. Blaming freight brokers or shippers seems silly to me as this situation did not happen over night. The concerns listed above are not new, they are just convenient to the times it seems.

Sometimes it is in the hardest of times that individuals get creative. I have found that survival is good for the soul, when you survive the tough times you know how to flourish in the good times. Many will be out of business over the next six months, therefor increasing the gap that is already lacking in our industry. Most of the guys that are venting right now know this as well as I do. We have been here before, we understand that nobody will sell their grain at a loss, nor do we expect them to, but you know as well as I do that the way things have been ran over the last 20 years are getting out of control. When times are fat, the trucker still bears the weight and hauls the grain, meal, or freight cheaper then they should. I have talked to a lot of these guys personally that are posting along with me, and all of us are going to make it through the storm as we have before. Most of us are tired of hearing the same crap though when times are good. Here are the excuses that we hear:

Sorry, the load fell through (we run into another trucker at the truckstop with that load and he did it cheaper)
I know I told you that you could have all 100,000 bushels, but I no longer have that many to move (the shipper got two more trucks to do it cheaper)
We will only pay you a one way rate (but we want you to deliver where there is no freight or product to come back)
We want you to stay at our facility all day for no extra money (but we have to pay our employees overtime)
The fuel surcharge is ? according to the government ( but the price of fuel went up .20 per gal since last weeks report)
I want you to carry higher insurance ( but I don't want to pay you a higher rate)

This list could go on and on, but what is the sense. Those are our complaints during the good times, they only get manified during the bad. Whether or not you agree to who is the blame, here is the reality, crap only rolls downhill until the plumbing gets clogged. The shippers and brokers have been flushing their toilets for so long without having the system cleaned that they don't realize that the war was started a few months back. Now when you have to call for that plumber it will start costing a lot more to clean up the crap.

There's a sucker born every minute gets proved over and over day after day in the trucker world.

When I started trucking our trucking school was greasing trucks and lumping freight so an old hand would let you learn the ropes as well as learn to drive. It taught us how to make money, watch our money, and how to maintain and care for equipment.

When the trucking world deregulated and the truck driver mills started churning out 30 day "Professional Drivers" it went to crap. Then to top the trucker mill sham the big cut rates started lease to own scams.
Nowadays we have herds of "Professional Drivers/Owner Operators" who don't have a clue on what they're doing, why they're doing it, or any aspect of cost or efficiency of operation.

one thing that I see very wrong with these guys that are complaining about rates is they seem to forget what an independent is I see them complaining about rates that brokers are giving them I do not see anyone complaining about rates that they are getting from the shippers if they are independents yes the rates have dropped a little bit but they're better than the broker I see this everyday with talking with people they seem to forget what an independent truck driver is once you so called owner operators figure out when an independent is maybe you'll quit complaining and begin to realize what a true business owner really is

Agreed Scott. Here's the current issue that I face. I started out in this industry 11 years ago. I started by hauling cattle and transitioned to flatbed. Then from flatbed to side dump/belt and back and now to hopper. I live in Colorado and for a time the flatbed thing was ok and was making money. Then the oilfield slowed and the flatbed became real scarce and rates went down. So I studied real hard to see what does Colorado have to offer for the industry, and here's what I found.
reefer hauling and from what I've been told it's nothing to brag about.
cattle hauling which is fine but hard on sleep andvolatile
hopper which is extremely low pay to get out of here
milk/tanker which is tied up within about 3 companies.
So what exactly does one do? I'd love to move east but that would require my wife to leave her job at the state which has the benefits package that I can't find a budget for with what I can do for rates to be competitive and have a shot at work. I hope that there's some shippers on here reading to know that the struggles we talk about are real. And yes there's some posts getting carried away but sometimes our emotions get the best of us, it's human nature. And unfortunately the shippers are looking at ways to cut expenses, just like us, and if TQL comes in and can get it done for a 1.00/mile instead of 2.50/mile then they're going to do it. It's good business on their part. Now when TQL can't perform, and we know there's a lot of times they can't, then the shipper has to step up to the 2.50 to move their product. But if they can do it on one or two loads and move 15 at 1.00 they can afford to do that. Now as me as the carrier sometimes I have to take the 1.30/mile load to get a 2.50-3.00 load. But if I had to haul 15 loads at 1.30.........well we all know where I'd be. It's just so hard to get in with a shipper and make them understand. We can talk about how the ONLY thing that has gone down as far as our expenses is fuel. But that's a piece to the pie and the shipper thinks it's the only piece. They don't take into account that tires, insurance, salary, mortgage, payments, cell phone, computers, paper, food, scales, showers/hotels have either not gone down or actually gone up.
It's just really coming down to one thing, the independents are going to get pushed out and corporations are going to take over. I've seen it in the farming side of business. The big guys get bigger and the little guys are getting pushed out. Look at the elevators.....every small town had their own elevator that would compete to give the best price for the commodities. Now they are pretty much gone and big corporate elevators are buying them out to control the prices. Then there's no competition and they set the price. Same here. It's sad but it's where this country is headed. Diversify would be great, but I own one truck, and if I owned 5 different trailers to be able to haul whatever, I still only own one truck and I promise you it will ALWAYS come down to I don't have the right trailer for the area I'm in looking for a load. IE I pulled a flatbed load to New Jersey, then sit in New Jersey cause the loads aren't there but there's plenty of reefer loads. It would be AMAZING if we could all work together but right now, everyone's out for themselves. Remember when you would drive along and see a truck broken down on the side of the road and another truck stopped to help. Not now.

I recently unloaded sand in nebraska and ska and it was a struggle to get it out of a super hopper with 32x54" traps. Another guy was there with Ag hoppers with small doors and he was really really struggling to get it out and started shoveling a 26 ton load out of his trailer. I went over and picked up a shovel and started helping cause it's something I would want a fellow trucker to do for me. We got his load out and he handed me a bottle of water and tried to give me $20 for helping him. I told him just what I said. I don't want your money, we need to help one another out, and if I was in your position I would hope that someone would've helped me. But now days someone sees a guy struggle like that and gets his load off and drives away. No comrodery any more. That's what's sad to me. And the lack of loyalty

The mindset of fuel went down so should your rates is hard for me to understand. Fuel is only part of the cost of doing business granted it is a big part of it but still rubs me wrong when I am told that or have to read it.

I have been hearing that since the first of the year from one of my customers. I have explained to him that our other costs have increased. He kind of understands but when another company comes in and cuts the rates to have work or when the reseller says they will FOB it and is 12 cents per bushel cheaper on a 105 mile loaded haul it makes it that much harder to have the rate discussion.

It’s not the owners fault that there are guys willing to haul it cheaper, it’s not the resellers fault that there are guys willing to haul cheap. It’s sad that the shipper/reseller/broker has figured out that some people are not well versed in business and have taken advantage of that by trying to cut the rate as much as possible to increase their profit margin. I can’t blame the owner for letting the reseller handle the trucking and make a better margin. It is the trucking company’s fault that they are hauling this cheap stuff. It comes back to one thing some people don’t know what it takes to operate a truck and they have the mindset that if the wheels are turning ‘I’m making money’. Needless to say he has cut my trucks off because he is getting it hauled cheaper; more power to him and more power the guys that are hauling it for that. I refuse to run a truck for what they are doing it for. Will this man continue to be a customer of mine? I hope so but I’m not going to lower my rates below what our minimum per mile ( Alfred - I know it’s not about the miles but about the margin ) is just to keep him happy nor will I subject myself to listening to the 'lower your rate' every time I talk with him.

When the reseller/terminal sits in their office and discusses what they can get a load hauled for and says ‘well that’s cheap but go ahead and post it and we’ll see if anyone takes it’ followed by ‘we’ll raise it some if we can’t get it moved for that and if it gets close we’ll pay full rate’ is enough to make your blood boil. They factor in a good rate when they are buying it, but want to get it done as cheap as possible to increase their margin.

I have three of my other customers that have not said a thing about my rates because they are willing to pay for the level of customer service that we provide (i.e. we do what we say we are going to do and my drivers act like professionals).

Until guys figure out what it cost to run a truck and be too profitable things will not change. Until guys figure out that it not all about the wheels turning just to make the truck payment it will not change. Until guys figure out that being the cheapest is not the way to survive it will not change.

Several years ago a young man just starting out in the hopper business was sitting at our shop on a Friday morning. He at the time happened to be leased to a local company and has since went out on his own and is still running and has increased his fleet to 3 trucks. On this particular Friday morning I asked him why he wasn’t running his truck. He relied to me that he didn’t have money for fuel and couldn’t run his truck that day but there was plenty of work. I got to thinking that if he didn’t have fuel money did he ever pay himself. So I asked him that very question. His reply was that he never paid himself because there was never enough money and they lived off his wife’s income. My reply to him was that he might as well either figure out what it cost to run the truck including taking a driving wage off the top or go ahead and sell the truck because he was working for free and would be broke and out of business before long.

There was once two homeless guys sitting under a overpass out of the rain as they got to talking the first one said that he used to own a trucking company and that he was always the low bid and had lots of work but had still lost everything. The other guy chuckled and said that he had also owned a trucking company but he was always the high bid and couldn’t find work and had lost everything.

Everyone has different operational costs and should know down to the penny what it is and that should include your profit margin. A profit margin is not what is left over at the end of the week it should be a set percentage of your gross income. Just because someone else is hauling it doesn’t mean that you should. Don’t be afraid to tell someone no. I do it quit often and it doesn’t hurt that bad.

Hey the story of the two homeless guys made my day. I think it was Paul Harvey that would have called that the quote worth requoting. TGIF!

Hey tj what kind of sand was you hauling? Ive been hauling f-1 sand to nebraksa every week and no issues. Ive even got HI Flow doors on mine. I used to have the big super doors like yours i thought they worked really good for sand and rock untill i had to open them lol. that was the hardest part opening them big things. But ive never had any problem with them.

It's was ball field sand for the infield of a redone stadium. It was damp when it was loaded so it didn't come out very well. Not like the frac sand where it's like sugar.

Ok enough is enough first you come on here saying rates are down because of dollar value, which is pure propaganda. Now you come on here and say how good you are too your drivers (so called o/o's), so please let's finish the story. Tell us why you are the queen of SB or wherever that is ? Your talking with a bunch of INDEPENDENT TRUCKERS, please tell us how your so good ?

i to have seen rates going down.with fuel and everything else staying same prices.