Rate to the truck

?????? all of it or none. i wasnt sure how to answer your question did you mean dollar per mile after the dust settles or how much a broker can take off the top of load before the owner throughs hands up and says regrettable words?

Dollar per mile rate, that you the carrier need to RETAIN and attract GOOD QUALIFIED drivers, and still turn a profit for yourself. Many of you have drivers abandoning equipment out there on the road, but pretty much all of you have drivers abandoning equipment at your yard. What is the number that you think would stop that cycle?

I am inclined to say $3.50 per mile to the owner of the truck, for every mile on the truck, would be a starting point now that money is the only thing left to offer. All of the stuff that used to make this a great job are gone now, paper logbooks, the freedom to work at your own pace, nice truck stops that had a real restaurant, equipment that was reliable and could be serviced by anyone with a basic set of tools, a understanding public and reasonable enforcement community that hadn't went mentally insane yet. Of course the carriers the truck is leased to, as well as the brokers will need to make something too, especially the ones who are double dipping, so you would have to mark that $3.50 a mile up significantly, perhaps even double it. It will be interesting to see how Uncle Sam wiggles their way out of the mess they created. I saw something on YouTube that Canada is offering citizenship now to anyone who wants to become a trucker.

I agree with you BUT we both know that the new era of trucking companies and O/O that are coming out are not doing the math. They don't know what it costs them to run. It would be nice to be able to get the rates that we need for the exceptional service we provide! We just lost an account because the cold weather changed the rules and now the company is using cheaper trucks. Good for them for now, but when they can not find trucks as other opportunities arise and they come back to us, we will not be there or the price of the freight will be drastically higher. If everyone stands their ground we can make this work! Let's not go out cutting rates!

I see a lot of these posts and they always make me go "hhmm"? I am not trying to start a thing and we do not move "bulk", but I have been doing this a bit and have also managed an asset based company.

Why doesn't anyone on here talk about the TOTAL cost to run the truck? The rate per mile that you MUST have is a function of cost to run the truck plus some other easily identified items. These costs will include(but are not limited to) the rig and trailer(s), maint, driver pay, maybe a PIA factor for some shippers/receivers, the length of the run and expected profit for the entity that owns the asset. There are also influencing factors related to what a particular market will bear and geography.

Make sense? Thougths?

I do agree with you on the average rule you use I break it down each week. I do this for myself as well as those who work with me . I think it gives me a better feel of the trends

$ 850.00 for 3 1/2 days plus a $ 50.00 washout no way in hell buddy ! You'd better double or triple that rate if you want any takers. Rates are ok if it was same day delivery !

there is no such thing as backhaul it costs the same to run the truck to point a as it does to point b

Just because a scenario works for you, does not mean that it works for everyone. For the sake of discussion, miles are being discussed. I don't divide my expenses over hours, less wear and tear while parked.

so you are saying that you are one of the few that would take that 2 loads per day 6 mile round trip for 3.50 per mile then, or the 300 mile load monday unload thursday. well that great i guess , myself i like to operate my business as it should be guaranteeing that any and all my time is accounted for and properly compensated...not just my miles....i mean think about it ...i will pay you 3 bucks for every nail you put in a piece of wood, i only need 3 per day b ut i need you on the job for 8 hours....you good with 9 bucks a day or would you like to be compensated for the whole job and time spent. ?

I will take your load for the rate offered +$60.00 per hour storage fee, for every hour it sits on my trailer, provided you can send over a rate confirmation with proof of a broker bond, Because when I checked with FMCSA they couldn't seem to find you in the system for some reason?

question? i hear a lot of 3.50 a mile talk on here. Is that a loaded mile or All miles traveled including the 100 miles you bounced through a truck parade? Or all the fence post holes you hauled over the year to get yourself under your own roof for a few hr.

Are we watching the failure of the free market system? Driver turnover is around 100%, yet carriers appear unable to charge enough to retain qualified help, in what has been called a record breaking economy. Drivers are leaving faster than anyone can train them, half of the insurance companies that write truck policies left the market, in anticipation of the problems the ELD would bring. Most surveys show driver income to be down 27% since the ELD, and brokers tell us that they can't pay us anymore money to move the load, as shippers in the news tell us they can't find trucks.

While I can not necessarily debate your stats, I will tell you that the "ELD Monster" is a myth and driver turnover has been at 100% for quite a while. That's not a good thing and it is definitely a complicated issue to address. I will tell you that we ran 65+ reefers, some drop/hook loading on the outbound, ALL Live unload/reload for returns, mostly into PIA food warehouses and every driver was guaranteed 10k miles per month or better. Some drivers that hustled ran 12k-13k a month. I have a buddy that owns and runs hopper bottoms and walking floors and his guys get even more miles.

While there are some idiosyncrasies to ELD's, they are just your log book without paper. Yes, a young strong driver or an expereienced pro that is road hardened cannot run, run, run like the old days, but that is the world today. Stop fighting it and find solutiuons, get direct customers, find brokers you can trust where everyone earns. Lastly, driving is a job unlike AND just like any other. Yes, you have certain freedoms and it takes a special person to do it well! Yes, most of us (myself included) will say we can't do YOUR job and that drivers pay the highest price of all of us in BS, long hours, lost family time etc. We get all of that. But, whether you're a 20 year vet and own every truck in your fleet or a 1 year NOOB, company driver, you ALL work for someone else for the duration of that load. A LOT of drivers make or are allowed to make WAY TOO many decsions with no idea what it costs to run a truck, how to run a business and how to read a P&L. If you don't like that and can't work with someone to resolve issues, then you may want to reconsider your carreer choice. I hope not, because we need all of you!!

Now this is a bulk board and bulk just may that much different of an animal, but I suspect not. This is also my opinion, for the most part, and all that my opnion will get you is a free cup of coffee in the break room...and it's free to start with.

Be safe out there...

As far as freedom in the truck....the only freedom I want is the freedom to get to work at my place, not someone else's. Leave the safety up to the driver, non of us want to get hurt, or hurt anyone else

Boy oh boy you need to come to the east coast

Btw William, I don't think you were bashing owner operators, but we do see a fair amount of that on social media. Usually it's one trucker poking fun of another truckers misfortune.

Define "owner-operator". I have my own authority and I negotiate all of my own rates. I rarely use brokers but even that can be negotiated.

WOW!! Lots of assumptions about my business DAVE...

It's probably not fair, but the small carrier is not going to get the same rate as a big carrier, your value to a shipper is determined by the size of your operation. It's really no different than retail, wallmart can get a better price on product when they buy it, because they buy a massive volume of it, so the supplier will value wallmart more as a customer, than the mom and pop store, it's all about volume. I have had some direct customers in the past that would pay a higher rate to a broker than they would to me, based on that same logic, so one day I got frustrated and started booking my loads through the broker instead of going direct, and I made more money even after the broker took their cut. It was my way of sticking it to them for trying to use us small guys to pull the market down. Now that all makes sense to me, but in my opinion here's where stuff gets weird. In every other industry when turnover climbs above 5%, rates go up to bring that turnover back under control. Supply and demand are able to balance each other out, and find a equilibrium, however that don't occur over here in the Bermuda Triangle, our turnover is 100% and rates don't compensate, if anything they go down, more of us leave the market, and then guys with turbins on their head show up, who can't speak English to replace us.

I emailed you a loads in oh with no response, do they not exist?

Idk on bulk side but otr(dry vans) your rates( King of Freight) are really low. Just to say the lees.

I think the big myth is the 100% driver turnover. It’s so high because most companies misrepresent their compensation package in some way or another so a few months in when the driver figures out they aren’t going to make $80,000 a year when they’re making $4000 a month and they didn’t like the free company work attire because it’s more constrictive than sweats and flip flops, they move along to the next company that promises $90,000 a year and free short pants. I agree with the things that have been said about economies of scale and what that means as a small carrier. I can’t go after large accounts. I get that. However, I also believe that this is a relatively free market and the costs are fairly easy to calculate. Nowhere do I come up with $3.50 a mile as a reasonable number to expect. I’d like it, but I and companies/brokers I work for have lost freight paying less than that to cheaper trucks. If the driver situation truly becomes critical, the rates will go up. In the meantime, I’ll structure my business to be profitable with the rates I can get, not the rates I would like to see. I do not labor under the delusion that I will ever make as much money for the amount of time I put in as my good friend who is a dentist, for example. His market is harder to get in to, so he will make more, even if my job is harder work. Our line of work will not likely ever be a ticket to early retirement because big business and their big lobbying dollars will always find a way to force less skilled people in when the situation calls for it. In my opinion, autonomous trucks, at least in the beginning, will make the new hazards due to elds look like child’s play. They will march right in to the marketplace, though, because it is a solution to driver retention. Personally, I’d like to see reasonable changes to HOS, so whether paper or eld, we could be efficient. And, I would like for more people to say no to cheap freight, but that’s unlikely since everyone has a different definition of what that is. I apparently am part of the problem operating for under $3.50. Now, everyone can feel free to rip me apart for the new carrier idiot who doesn’t understand costs or negotiating or service or whatever, but that’s my .02

Kevin, Do you need trucks in the Livingston//East Texas area? I'm in Liberty Cty. If so, what type equipment? Thanks.

Like it or not Dale, you ARE in the poker game. How do you learn? Mostly the "school of hard knocks". Lots of information and the ability to decipher that information. I have learned to play the cards in my hand. Do your best to hold a pretty good hand. Have some idea what the other guy is holding. I don't go anywhere without some sort of plan. There is something about saying NO and "putting it in the wind". Maybe you could cover fuel. But the teachable moment could be worth more. The shipper and broker make their plays based on yours.

Think outside the box. Run efficient. And provide better service. Someone will notice...

How screwed up will this be allowed to get before something changes? For those who have been paying attention, the senate commerce committee just a few days ago held a hearing where they heard testimony from Agribusinesses how the entire supply chain has failed, both domestically and internationally. Shippers testified how they were throwing product away or watching it rott on the ground, because they couldn't find trucks, resulting in clogged up rail yards and maritime ports. Funny how FMCSA wasn't talking about how great the ELD's were at the hearing, or wanting to take credit for them. Well we have been hear before back in 1933, when FDR stepped in and started economically regulating the trucking industry. At a time when the stock market is hitting all time highs, shippers are saying they can't find trucks, and truckers are saying they are going broke? Insurance companies are now leaving the industry faster than the drivers, and accidents and violations are soaring to new highs. The ELD may have put the focus onto HOS, but HOS is putting the focus on Rates. How many of believe that the government will allow the current course to continue, now that the supply chain is falling apart?

Thanks Jim

This trucking thing has been a monstrous learning experience the past year. I think its human nature to want to take the easiest path to be able to support your family. I found it hard to believe that there are that many people taking these increadibly cheap loads but there must be, see the line at any conventional soybean facility. Im empty for around 300 miles between loads and its hard to be disciplined and pass up the money. With 800 or more empty miles a week it can easily pull the dollars per mile driven average down WELL below 2 bucks at times. And those incredibly cheap loads require us carriers to get more money from you GOOD PEOPLE in order to make up for the empty miles. Last year my dollars per mile driven average was higher than what im on track for now, but i'm hopeful that less maintenance will make up the difference. Again i need to stress that my inquiring to this situation isnt to you hard working brokers. I dont expect top dollar for my loads, in order to be, competitive i believe i need to be able to do it at a fair rate. Honestly depending on the place, and to a reliable customer, i'll do a damn cheap load if that person is in a pinch. I dont expect anything in return other than dont abuse "the i'm in a pinch" rate. And i definitely dont expect 4 bucks a mile all the time. Unfortunately, there are people in the industry abusing the i'm in a pinch rate, to take advantage of people and those few bad apples create tension between your side and mine, Just like how a few slobs behind the wheel, reflects poorly on all of us and that is one reason we have this expensive, work ethic cripling, safety joke eld computer sitting on the dash. I appreciate the discussion, Jim, if your ever looking for trucks or just to BS in further detail, shoot me an email [email protected]

Mr nickel, I wish your friend would have read my post that they decided to reply to. I appreciate your friends opinion. I felt it was a bit rude, but I probably brought that on myself based on our Roundup discussion. Unfortunately for your friend, I don't plan to shut up about hos. I communicate with my state officials about it and don't intend to stop. Since I'm inexperienced I do my best to make up the difference with hard work. If your friend can't keep up, then I'd guess people like me will end up with your friends customers in the future. I believe in equal opportunities, not equal outcome.

Mr. Hermans....again, what are you complaing about, the ELD, or HOS? make up your mind. This is most defiently an H O S problem. My solution? Keep the ELD, and change the AHOS back to 10 off in a 24 hour period. In other words, start and stop capibilities....

2.50 a mile. is good. I run from Alma Ga to Joplin every week for 2.40. Then I rely on brokers to find me a decent load back to somewhere near Alma. For the last 4 weeks I have run 2356 miles on the odometer for 4900 in revinue. And I have done this in 4 days on an ELD. I get paid 25% of what the truck makes. $1000 a week for 4 days work. My boss does not need to worry about driver retention.

Not wanting to start an arguement or anything but I'm curious as to how you figure your maintenance and fuel? I figured if he gets 25% of $2.40 that leaves $1.60. Fuel at $3.08 national average for the week and 6mpg for 2400 miles {rounding up} =$1232 divided 2400 miles $0.513 which leaves $1.08 so what your saying is you put $650.00 a week in to maintenance ($0.28 x 2350 miles) rounded down?

Yeah I'm just ballpark figuring. Pulling a hoper I've never averaged a 6mpg ifta quarter. At best in summer I'm 5.5. this winter I was 4.06 between additives and fuel I'm around .40 per mile. I use alot of number one from November to April up here .maintenance costs for myself were around .20 per mile last year, Which was my first year. Between license plates and permits and insurance and the occasional fine it eats that money up pretty quick. Yeah I didn't lay out an exact spreadsheet because I didn't think my "pro increased rate" opinion would have hairs split. Justmaking the case that a driver can potentially make more profitthan the truck owner at 2.40per mile. Not saying there's anything wrong with a driver making good money. I'm just saying that in my opinion 2.40 isn't good. It's OK

Oh forgot to say I dont know what your paying for fuel but national average is at $3.08 this week and if your getting 4 mpg this winter you need $0.77 per mile just to cover fuel not counting additives.

Around 20 cents just had that discussion with my trucking accountant this past weekend! That's pretty standard across the industry. Everyone situation is different. Just to cover the cost of the tractor. New tractor $150,000. If you run that tractor 150,000 miles a year for 5 years, and dedicate 20 cents to each mile you will recoup the cost of the tractor. I think that's how we arrived at around 20 cents a mile.

Well, this is finally being talked about at higher levels. Why? because you cant cheat the eld. Now, you took my post a bit out of context. The eld is benifiting us. as i stated in the first sentence. Its showing the real times most are sitting ...waiting to load/unload. We are our own worst ememy, when someone decides they can do it at a reduced rate. IDK< maybe some can. But why should a shipper tell us what the rate will be? WE need to change that. When is the last time you bought a tire and said "I'll pay you $250.00 for that new tire and not a penny more? Isn't that what shippers are doing to us?
. Brokers are just like us, they are trying to carve out a living, and some ruin it for the rest....Just like transportation specialists. All we have is service to offer. Thats all trucking is. Some do it better. But let me ask you this...Have you, yourself actually talked to the shipper about detention pay? I think as an industry, because the eld is shining a light (legitimently) on actual hours and gps locations, that it will prove to the desk jockey that a truck sat for x amount of hours. If we all stick with this it will change. And, as we get even older, we will be dropping out of the industry making things even worse for shippers, to rely on safe freight moving. Remember, it the HOS that needs to be fixed, not the way we record them.

another issue that didnt surface yet in this thread is the millennials have an entitled mentality. why bust it when mom and pop or grandpa pays your way to party in college. Then when reality hits you still dont want to work to hard. I am in the millennial generation and i worked hard instead of partying. Your money sounds good team swr almost makes me want to sell my rig. but finding a 21 year old that wants to work hard and not smoke pot is hard.

Mr nickels I definitely agree with you, that as a group we are our own worst enemy, and you make a very good point with your tire analogy. To take it a step farther no CEO of a publicly traded company would ever knowingly leave a profit out there on the table, because if he did his corporation would be sued by their shareholders, yet we see truckers justify it all the time.