who on earth is hauling stuff like this and how can you afford it

The problem Mr.Visser is this is far from the only loads posted with rates this bad. Since the fuel prices fell I have been offered cottonseed loads as low as $.90 a mile from people that are major buuyers posting on this site. There is also this Bill at Brock transportation posting loads out of Idaho for under $1.50 per mile. We can refuse the loads, but we all know that someone probably moves them. It is crazy.

Art Pfluger

there have always been fools willing to run for nothing.can't change it.i agree it hurts us all . but it polices it self.these fools go bankrupt... and then a new fool comes along and repeats the cycle..been doing this since the late 60s watched it over and over again..it will never change...every one thinks they are the last american COWBOY...hello,good morning,,those days are long gone..you now must use your head not your right foot..if you think you can hide from uncle sam welcome to modern technology..it's not if there know what your doing it's whether they care today,tomorrow,when the american truckers become educated and united they will demand a fair rate and get it......look at every other industry..united union or not is where our strength is..if you ever figure out how to gather the idiots things will change..know one seems to remember united we stand..

I was goin to comment I'll leave it alone keep on truckin

Jeff, I rarely disagree with you and this is no exception. One point though that I would like to make and make crystal clear. The TQl, UTI and other mega brokers coming in promote this behavior, in fact they depend on it. Some of the gentleman from another thread seemed to be more than willing to work for anyone without knowing the difference between brokers, these folks aren't taking time to build longterm relationships. They are looking for a paycheck and nothing more. As I have said I don't always agree with some of the brokers on this forum, I will work for these small guys than a TQL no matter what the circumstances. I get up everyday and find the best loads possible, no different than any other carrier regardless of size. At the same time I want to work with people that are trust worthy and hopefully on most days share the same moral values that I have. I know that these things can't be spent or put in a bank, but I hope over time my loyalty will come back. There are no morals and no loyalty with these other brokers. You really want to work for someone that doesn't even have the gumption to do a google search to know what a commodity is? To me these are the things that are plaguing what we do. I had a driver turn down a ride in a 379 pete, he only wants to drive freightliners with mercedes motors. He didn't want any pride in the ride. He wanted a big check run with an "EOBR" so I couldn't ask him to do anything illegal, it went on. He couldn't believe that we could get more than 3000 miles in a week. As an industry we are at the point where we reap what we have sown. Drivers want automatic trans and every bell and whistle. I started with a 250 cummins with a 5 and a 4, no A/C, no power steering and a 30" coffin sleeper and honestly thought I had a big truck. Last summer one guy quit cause I refused to put a truck in the shop the same day an A/C quit. Our industry will face unbelievable challenges if we continue to cave to Insurance people and government and we have to find people that WANT to embrace at least some semblance of old school values.

Art Pfluger

You can do what I did in January, park the hopper!!! When rates started falling and went below $2 per mile one way. I could not cost justify running a hopper any longer. I can let the thing sit for six months and wait for harvest season again.

When my dry van is getting $2500.00 to go from Dallas, Tx to O'Fallon, MO (43,500 lbs bottled water)
$800.00 for O'Fallon, MO to Council Bluffs, IA (15,000 lbs Plastic bottles)

Can somebody tell me why in the world I would want to run a hopper for $1.20 to $1.80 per mile one way?

My hopper customers are calling me again asking when am I going to run hopper again, I let them know when you decide to pay the rates that I established round trip last summer than I will hook up the hopper and run it again.

I have seen several guys go out of business over the past few months because they just kept on trying to keep their wheels turning. They were not making enough money to keep their equipment up, pay their insurance, or even pay themselves a wage.

I offered most of these guys the opportunity to pull one of my dry vans until the market came back, but they could not see the forest because of the tree.

Pride is often the downfall of many a businessman

Well said Kelly I am also confused

Is there a law, a regulation, a rule what? That says that its illegal for a trucking company to make money? I can fire up Ol number 1 that old 54 pete that's in the back along with that trailer that has nothing but hot capped tube tires...and work very very cheap...but why? Like I said before united we stand and divided we fall...well guess what..when you haul that cheap load..that sets the rate...ever heard of this little word called NO..no I'm not going to haul it...one day somebody will post a load ..where the trucker will have to pay the shipper to haul it...and they will have people wanting to do it..why does everybody else make a profit and the trucks aren't? Because most don't have a clue how much that truck costs per mile...that's loaded and empty..so what if fuel is less than 4 bucks..but,but I have this old truck paid for..OK..so you need to save up for a replacement..many states are following the laws that the communist state of California has..why?because the air needs to be cleaner than it is and truck are those terrible filth smoking death traps...so don't think that manual fuel pumped engine will go forever or be able to even enter some states..or the old generation of computer controlled engines...so what are you going to do then? That old truck you could take to a buyer south of the border..if you can find a buyer...just a clue ..a brand new truck is going for about 150000 plus...so if you can haul cheap..why? Why not save up and pay for that new truck that you will be needing to buy in just a few short years..

Kelly, I can't express on here how much I disagree with your position. That said, it is your business and you and your father need to do what you feel is the right thing. That said, if you know that the going rate is $2.00 per mile, but your business model says that you are making your minimum profit at $1.85 per mile why would you leave that money on the Table? I will ramble on but that question is the whole thing in a nut shell. As fara as payments go YOU WILL fail if you feel that you can run cheaper just because your stuff is paid for. Yes your profit margin increases, but any accountant will tell you that you are always making a payment in some form. If you aren't putting money aside to replace that paid for something you will fail when it is worn out. and in the mean time you hauled for less because your immediate overhead was reduced.
We all use different ways to calculate what we need to make a profit, although I think there are a ver y few that actually sit down and know what their true costs are until they get big enough to have a full time accountant. Tracking all of this is very time consuming. If you have one truck maybe 2 not to bad, when you have 2-7 you are trying to get by with the minimum people and really are not studing your true costs. I really would also like to know why you would have power units dedicated to a particular trailer unless of course your equipment is on a dedicated haul? That changes everything.
I am responsible for my company and nothing more, but I try to also keep in mind what I would do if I was a 1 truck guy. I hope that my company can grow, but I don't want to do that if I make it impossible for that 1 truck guy.
Kelly, I have no desire to attack you. I am totally confused by your position though. You owe me nothing but I would like to know how you defend your postion. I realize that fuel is cheaper, but ALL of my other costs today are so high that I can't discount anything to anyone. I am trying to get more money. Unless you are on a level with J.B or Swift how could you operate on less than $2 per mile?

Art Pfluger

Art Pfluger

Looks like a lesson in free market Capitalism. Some win and some loose. It's like playing cards. Think about the words of Kenny Rogers song The Gambler. You've got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them, know when to walk away and when to run. I love this game.

TOM SUTTON TJ SUTTON ENTERPRISES LLC WILMINGTON, NC Posts: 36

Originally Posted by: TROY JEFFERS Quote: "So the real question is... why do they want to go around you??? Well, because we don't need you, your just another hand in the pie." Now that I think about this more it's not your pie it's my pie that I'm sharing with you. Or is it that you answer B guys think that all loads are yours you just don't get to them in time..... For some reason the seagulls from saving Nemo keeping popping into my head ... mine mine mine mine... mine I should probably get some rest before I type something I'll regret later.

I thought it made sense. Not that big a pie, but you guys still get some, then get a bigger pie later, and get a chunk of that too. The whole time that is going on, the poor sap who took what was left of the first pie, still has to make his truck payment.

Sorry I'm so used to getting pounced on anytime I post anything being defensive is automatic.

I try and take care of anyone I work with be it shipper or hauler. Most of the guys that contact me for those low ball runs are my first contact with them. Afterwards if everything went well I'll reach out to them with better runs.

I think though with the news of the broker being found liable for workers comp on an injuried driver that you may see bulk load brokering change a little bit. I've always said I had as much exposure on a load as the hauler did. That case just proved my point.

i love the broker stuff


if you dont like it, then go out and haul direct for anyone you want all these companies are looking for new carriers, you wont need a broker you,ll have so many conatcts you'll become a broker .

Tom, I understand. We used to broker as well, this is how it worked with us. I had 10 carriers like myself that I worked with. I agreed to get them the rate they wanted from the shippers plus 10% for our firm.

Here is the example:

Carrier wanted $2.55 per mile for the load, with our bump it would cost the shipper $2.81 per mile. We paid the carrier within two days for a 2% discount. While we sat sometimes up to 45 days waiting on our money from the shipper. Our rate sheets showed the cost to both the shipper and the carrier as well. Now anyone who has ever brokered knows this is the harder way to go about it. This lasted for about two or three months and all parties seemed to be happy. The shippers were happy that they were getting carriers that were getting paid what they were worth, and they were getting the service they desired. The carriers were happy because they were getting more money with us than they were used to getting on their own. All of the sudden a couple of the carriers started complaining that we were taking their pie and that they did not need us at all. I told them fine you don't understand the power of leverage and just go back to doing it on you own. A couple more months went by and a couple more carriers (independants) started saying the same thing. I informed them as well just go ahead and do it on your own, we decided not to rebond when the rate of the bond went up. I felt that if the greedy trucker could not understand that standing in unity would make them stronger than being independant then I had failed at the whole reason we set the brokerage up in the first place.

I don't care about your size of the pie, as long as I am getting the piece that I want.

We would not work with shippers that wanted to pay less than $2.30 per mile to start with. So it is pretty much the same as I run my trucking company, we all need to eat and if we would all quit bickering and cutting each other than we could all get enough of the pie to live a very nice life. For those that think the big companies have it any better. You need to research the tariff contract that they are under with the Government. You will find out that they are not making as much per mile as you think, and you all thought deregulation really occurred. Wake up truckers!!! They still regulate the rates that you can make when you reach a certain size. Now all of us on this forum are spot market runners so you are not regulated by a Tariff agreement. But really you are " Crap always rolls down hill"

Trucking reminds me so much of drug dealing that it is pathetic. Back when I was a young dumb kid, I used to deal, at leastwise we had an honor code that we would not invade each others territory and we would not degrade the price amongst ourselves. If you bought a bag of weed from me it was going to be the same price 10 miles away. Truckers act like the strung out junkies that had to have their drugs or they thought they would die. The junkies were the ones that often times would do anything just to get their fix. The truckers fix is miles, miles, miles and they will keep degrading the price just to get their fix.

If they make weed legal in Missouri, I will be getting out of trucking and get back into growing and selling. You can make more money per acre from weed than you can corn, beans, or any other product that is in your hoppers. I will than find a broker like Tom and have him hire you hopper guys to haul my weed.

One final word I don't smoke the stuff, I am just a businessman that sees an opportunity. Quit griping about the other guys pie, and only worry about your own piece.
That is why 19 drivers have not made it with me over the last few years, they would look at my house, trucks, trailers, wife, kids, and life and want what I had. It is not my fault that I would pay them on Friday and they would be broke on Monday. I grew up poor and earned my millions the good old fashioned way, hard work, good hustle, and a little good luck from time to time.

I do not believe that you need to lie or steal to make money. I believe that you do have to work and be wise with your money and always look for opportunities to have your money work for you..

I have met some very good people over the last few years on this trucking adventure. It amazes me how guys that have been doing this for 30 plus years are still struggling to just make ends meet. Before I would work this hard and have nothing, I would work a local job and be home every night and have something. My dad was one of these such truckers and it saddens me that he is 70 and still has to drive a truck for me because he failed to plan for his retirement and thought Social Security would take care of him.

My passion is to help others learn how to make their money work for them, but I have found that truckers seem to know it all. Really? that was the attitude that I had when I was 21 years old. I learned while in the Army that if you look, listen, learn and implement as a team, that you are unbeatable. Even the cowboys in the old west knew this. Why is it so hard for you trucker cowboys to understand teamwork. We need to be working with each other not against each other. I gurantee that I for one can afford to sit and wait until the dust settles and then the opportunities in trucking will really open up.

Matt, I always tell the shippers I would like to see them put their freight on their own trucks, with their own drivers and just break even with the rates that they often are trying to get the rest of us to haul it for. It is a big scam between the shippers/manufacturers that got in cahoots with the government under the Carter administration to bust up the rate houses in trucking. This is the very definition of facisim, when corporations and government work with each other to control the people. Now you throw in a little socialism and tell the people that we are still a capitalistic republic and get them to believe the lie. The cost of living goes up but the wages basically remain the same.

Back in 1996 when I was the shipper, I was paying $1.65 per mile all miles (round trip) plus fuel surcharge.

I then in turn took what MS Carriers was charging me and added 15% on for shipping and handling cost to my end customers. I would have never have thougt to expect MS Carriers to eat it or not make profit in order to bring me my freight. I know there was not a broker involved in this situation but I had other customers use brokers to ship to me as well with other products. I did not see much difference in the rates between the carriers and I just continued to tack on my 15% regardless. I believe this is still going on today, so the shipper is not only making profit on their product but the have figured out how to make even more profit than before on our trucks.

A good broker will keep his margin fair so that both sides are winning. A bad broker only cares about themselves and the shipper. Brokers are just as guilty as cutting each other as truckers. They are just one level up in the drug (mile) dealing chain. The shippers are much like the cartel making all of the money off of the peasants (employees, truckers, customers). So there it is, go ahead and run for that shipper direct and watch him or her drag out that 45 day payment in to 90 day terms. All of the shippers that I haul for direct pay within 7 days or I am selling the paper and I also charge a 15% upcharge on my rates for those type of customers.
Same holds true for brokers as well.

If you provide better service than people will pay better money. We are the mercenaries that fix problems. Last time I checked mercenaries are not cheap!!! So if I can't get others to join the cause, than I will do it my way. It seems to be working, less work, more money..

Just think of my concept like plumbing. A plumber that does new construction does not make as much as a plumber that comes out and fixes your sewer problems. If you are patient and willing to wait for the OH SHI**ER Loads than you will find that the shipper will pay a premium for that service.

How else do you think I got $2500.00 for 45000 lbs of bottled water from Nestle in Dallas to O'fallon MO, 734 miles.

I am patient, here is another problem with the drivers that have driven for me, they are so addicted to the drug (miles) that they would gripe and complain about my patient mercenary ways. Yet at the end of the week they were making $1000 to $2000 for only driving 1600 miles. Now these boners thought the same as the rest of the trucking industry. If I did 3000 miles I would make twice the money. It don't work like that, the drug dealers know that most of you want your miles.

Here is the song they are singing:

"Stand up and be counted for what you are about to receive, we are the dealers and we will give you everything you need"

For those about to truck, we will screw you, For those about to truck, we will screw you. LOL

Tom, nothing here is intended to offend you, just when I saw your post I figured you were fed up with the whole "it's the brokers fault" thing and felt I would give my opinion as a trucker and a past broker.
I find it funny how truckers tent to blame brokers for the rates being bad. This is simply not the case. The truckers who haul cheap are the ones who set the standard for how cheap all brokers can get it hauled for. Don't hate on the broker cause he negotiated $4.50 per mile to handle x amount of loads, but you agreed to haul it for the broker for $1.25! That would be the broker being good at his job! You, not so much! Truckers need to man up and acquaint themselves with the business they are in. Forget about how much the broker should be making off you! Figure out how much you should be making! Forget about how much you can do it for costwise. Figure out what the actual market value is and how much profit you can make. As a knowledgable business man or woman you will be able to always haul profitable, sometimes very profitable which will keep you going when things are slow. I think it would be fair to say that there's almost as many idiot brokers out there as idiot truckers, well maybe not but there are plenty. Good brokers have the same problem with them as good truckers have with bad ones. Key to this solution is DONT HAUL CHEAP!!!!! If there were no stupid truckers out there to haul cheap for the stupid broker who undercut the good one, the stupid broker would be soon out of business while the savy truckers and brokers would go on everyday working together and making their profit! Make sense so far?
Rates are truly bad and have been for a long time. It's not because of brokers or shippers for that matter. IT'S BECAUSE OF TRUCKERS!
The brokers give a price based on firstly them making a profit and getting the load moved. The price and profit is ENTIRELY based on what TRUCKERS will move it for.
In actual fact if you were to forget about the price gouging between brokers and truckers for a minute and for example just call it 20% or 10% to the broker for organizing the loads and assigning them to legal truckers, well the more the truck makes the better the broker does too! That's the America I love, let's all make good money.
HOWEVER this is not to be confused with the lazy trucker who says, 20% is too much to give up to the broker while at the same time has no clue what the actual market value is for his service, he's just willing to haul it for whatever he was told they were supposedly paying but whatever that price was he thinks the broker is getting too much. These are typically the same idiot truckers that are hauling cheap, and come and go like the winter.
First clue that you will know when your talking to an idiot trucker is when they say "my shits paid for so I can do it cheaper"! Really! Have you ever heard a broker say my house/office, computer, bond or phone is paid for so I can do it cheaper!? Do you think Walmart sell stuff cheaper in the stores that are paid for than the stores that still have payments? You bet your ass they don't buddy, they know how to run a business and study the market very closely. I wish all truckers would do the same.

I bought my first truck in 1979. I have been waiting for the industry to correct itself since. I have been told since'79 that "those cheap freight guys will lose their trucks and rates will be great". Its been a long wait and it hasn't happened yet. Everytime one dumb ass guy goes broke there is another one that thinks he can do it for a penny less and on and on. It is sad but I really don't think I will live long enough for this pattern to change.

Art Pfluger

When most (9 out of 10) truckers can't add up the cost of running a truck (much less 2+2),then this is what you get,cheap freight. Most truckers revenue at the end of the day won't even make driver's pay but they think they are making alot of money. When i am at the auction looking to buy more trucks to add to my fleet,i watch wannabe truckers running around to buy a truck and stop them and ask,what are you going to be doing with a truck and they say haul loads and make money. i ask them what are you going to be getting paid ? they say .80 a mile and i attempt to explain to them about how fast that they will be out of business and when you start laying out the numbers to them they just get a glazed look in their eyes an i finally start to realize that they have no business buying a truck and quite possibly even have no business being behind the wheel of a truck. If you don't like the price a broker gives you then leave the load where it sits and go out and find your own hauling,which isnt hard to do if you take the time to look.

Thanks Paul, a old cowboy taught me that you should drive your cattle away from the storm so you would not have to ever weather the storm. Seemed pretty smart to me then and seems pretty smart to me now. When construction went bust, do you think I weathered the storm or decided to move on? I was not going to build houses for $85.00 per square foot when I was building them for $200 per square foot before. The same thing applies to trucking why would I start hauling freight for $1.25 - $1.75 when I was making $2.50 - $3.00 per mile before. For all you guys that believe the lie that fuel prices are down and that is why we should haul cheaper. Well when fuel prices were $4.00 per gallon and I was asking for more, all I heard from the shippers was they could not afford it. If you want to haul for 1980 rates than I suspect that you are running 1980 equipment. Here are the fact gentlemen, wake up and smell the coffee and learn how to run numbers not miles(the drug).

New truck in 1980 fully loaded: $45K - 75K
Fuel Cost in 1980: 70 cents per gallon
Insurance in 1980: $185.00 per unit
New Trailer in 1980: $10k - 15K
Average price per mile in 1980: $1.00 - $1.50

New truck in 2015 fully loaded: $169K
Fuel Cost in 2015: $2.80 per gallon
Insurance in 2015: $550.00 per unit
New Trailer in 2015: $30K - 45K
Average price per mile in 2015: $1.25 - $1.85

What is wrong with this picture?

Somebody is making money, and as you can see it is not most of the truckers.

This problem is not only in our industry, it is basically nationwide. We are fastly becoming a third world nation as far as pay versus cost of living.

Before I went into the Army in 1986 I was making $17K a year as a manager at McDonald's. When I got out of the Army in 1996 they we paying $20K a year for the same job.

A forklift driver was making $10 - $12 per hour in the 80's now they make $15 - $20 per hour. An auto worker was making $20 - $25 per hour in the 80's now they make $25 - $30 per hour. A carpenter was making $8 - $12 per hour now they are making $15 - $22 per hour.

So if you could buy a real nice car in the 80's for around $15K but now that car cost $45K, and fuel was .50 per gallon and now it is $2 per gallon, a new house cost $45K and now it cost $165K (that is a 1300 sq ft house), clothes cost more, food cost more, are you getting the point?

Now the shippers/manufactures will say that they are making less profit today than they were back then. Well when you don't pay a person what they are worth often times they will not do as good as job for you. So now they have to hire twice as many people to do the same job as one person would do back in the 80's. Now we have all seen the laziness that abounds in our country. It used to piss me off, until I realized that if somebody was not paying me what I was worth, than I would repay them likewise with substandard work. When we do have to haul cheap from time to time, guess what that customer does not get the same service as the customer that pays our rates. I don't care when the load gets there if they are not paying the rates I want for our trucks. I don't care if my drivers have an attitude with those customers as well. When those customers act like they are paying top dollar for us to haul the loads, I quickly inform them that the only reason we took their cheap load was because my driver needed to get home for an emergency. If they payed top rate it was sure not to us, and they need to be talking to their broker about this problem. Because as long as the trucks are getting bad rates than the shippers will get bad truckers.

End of my rant
have a good day, I am heading to PA