Truckers Opinions on Brokers (keep it friendly)

Simple,take 8% and a copy of freight bill like the old days..This way everyone is on the level.

So if the rate is a good rate, that there is enough for you to take more? Is that what your saying? And everything else that you say you do.. Is what that 8-10% fee pays you to do. Why do you think that you shouldn't pass that extra meat to the truck? And just how does that 1000 turn into 720? Unless it is double brokered. If one is ok with this.. And truckers found out about it.. I don't think broker is the right term.. I think unemployed would be better. Or one with their authority pulled.

So you would answer A or B to the gold mine question.

The carrier adds meat to it so that there is room for companies like mine to actively go out and find haulers.

So let me make sure I'm understanding this right. You would rather park your truck or run at a lower rate then allow me to make 10% for connecting you with this job and probably a bunch of other well paying jobs?
That doesn't seem very business savvy to me. That truly is not wanting to spend a dime to make a dollar.

As far as double brokering this may help you better understand what that actually is:

http://www.carrier411.com/co-brokering-double-brokering.cfm

As far as the whole duck/dog thing, have you ever had a broker meet you during the haul? More then likely I or someone that works for me will be one of the first people you'll meet when you pull in at the inspection/check in yard.

No I'm merely trying to understand why it is that a large portion of the smaller owners that call me are intent on trying to go around me.

When I started the process on this project I did phone interviews with over 30 companies. After the phone interviews I narrowed my choices down to 14 after further background research I narrowed it to 8. I then went south and interviewed those 8 of which I have 4 that I prefer and 1 or 2 on the maybe list. Let's face it every owner should be doing this, but it is a very time consuming process and some may not know how to. There is a certain skill to researching stuff and we all at one time or another have been bite by lack of research.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I put a lot of time into working out the best scenarios for everyone involved and I should be compensated for that just like you want to be compensated for every mile you drive.

I will readily admit that there are brokers that will push anything. There are usually three main reasons brokers get involved:
A) the price is to low and the prime can't find anyone to work at those rates (que the slimy brokers)
B)The job came to be very quickly and is so large that it exceeds local availability(9/11, katrina, sandy)
C) There is a shortage of the equipment needed and it needs to be pursued to get it work.

B&C are the ones I normally work. Short intrastate or under emergency declarations. They usually pay very well conditions are some times difficult but I try and make it so that the only thing the driver needs to think about is driving. In this particular case it's C pneumatic trailer capable of hauling frac sand.

As far as pay goes and me increasing my cut I'll refer you to 49 CFR376.12 D&G. I'm not going to type the whole thing but it essentially says if I'm paying someone by percentage of the load that I have to allow him to see the load tickets and that I have to pay him within 15 days of his presentation of paper work to me. Which is usually on a weekly basis. This is why you rarely see percentage jobs anymore it's to hard to cheat them. A tonnage or yardage job, someone can push the rate up and not tell you or only give you a smaller portion of the increase.

So even if I'm bringing you a larger pie, you wouldn't share?

I seriously tried my hardest to keep out of this little discussion .. Until now. It's funny how trucking went over 50 years with out freight brokers or what ever you want to call it. Funny how all of that freight was moved efficiently and on time. Then along came this thread. If one thinks that freight is your pie. YOU HAUL IT. Then it will be all of yours. Until then if you have been able to talk a shipper into hauling their freight, which you physically can't , then brag how shippers will fatten the pot so you will move that freight faster.. As a bonus to you.. Funny thing.. That freight was to cheap in the first place and you couldn't find an idiot to haul it.. And you think that you can keep more money? You bragged about it right here . Ya know.. I think your yanking our chain there are many legitimate HONEST brokers who aren't greedy who do care about the shippers and the truckers to safely move their freight. And then there are the rest of them .. Just where do YOU want to be? .. Because trucking is what moves freight.. Have you ever been known as Silence B Good?

When you started this thread.. You were a broker.. And now your a head hunter for O/O s.. Ohh my how did we get by before this? Ohhh and the norm is 2 hours for detention time. Not 4. Also it's rather strange that most either pull for a company or go direct to the fracing company. Less fingers in that pie that keeps getting brought up.

I don't care how much of the pie you are getting as long as I get the piece that I want. Here is the example: If the load pays $6000.00 for 100 miles and I will pull it for $1000.00 why should I care what you make. But often times it goes like this: Load pays $500.00 for 100 miles but we are offered $160.00. Now I have over 750 broker customers and 250 shippers. I can state that most of my broker customers offer me better rates then the shipper direct. My broker customers pay usually within 3-4 days while the shipper likes to take as long as 90 days (I factor that paperwork). As far as freight brokering, it has been around a lot longer than trucks. Freight Brokers are who put the deals together on ships long before trucks were ever made. Honest brokers make between 10% - 20% and they get it from the shipper, not the truck. Dishonest brokers take it from the truck and promise the shipper that they can get it cheaper then the other guy. I think you are in your right to make 10% Tom. Right now we are all having problems locating quality drivers, I have equipment parked until I find the right drivers to fill the bill.

No,sorry I can not help you in that area. We have hoppers and dry vans right now.

Hey tom I am gonna have to agree with you. owner operators these days are never happy. Well not all Ive had them to were they go behind your back try to under cut you when you get a job. But there are some good ones out there. But its not right to go behind your back after you make all the phone calls and get the job all that paper work and tring to keep it all straite and keep the ones happy and busy it may not be a gold mine. But I'd reather stay busy and make some money than sit at home wondering how I am gonna pay all my bills. hmmmm I wonder how many will like this.

Tom, I too am an "EVIL BROKER" I've been reading the submissions from the folks you've been introduced to in the forum for a while now. I find it funny that those O/O's think that they could just go straight ot the shippers every time they need a load and just get the exact load they want at the exact rate they want with a phone call every time. I realize that since O/O's outnumber brokers many times over and there will always be those who think the industry does not need brokers. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the very vocal owners voicing their opinions on this matter, however it seems as though they had some bad experiences with crooked brokers, I do admit there ARE bad brokers out there just like there ARE worthless O/O's out there we all know it. In my opinion it really doesn't matter how much meat there is on the bone at the start, what matters is I spend much of my day negotiating rates for the O/O's who run for me as well as the the trucks who call me looking for good freight. I pride myself in being 100% transparent with the trucks because it makes for a happier driver. For instance if Joe Blo has been hauling a certain lane for the shipper at $2.50/mi but for some reason can't get to it on time and that shipper calls me to see if I can get it covered at $2.50/mi I'm going to look it over and decide if I can get a truck under it (I dont think shippers should have to wait for almighty O/O to fit it into their schedule so that's where we ARE needed), So chances are by the time he's called me it's getting very close on time. I then see it as my job to negotiate a rate fitting to the job for any truck I may have found to do it, I negotiate this shippers rate up to $3.15/mi to bounce a truck 15% of the loaded miles. Now according to my math after I take my percentage out I'm actually paying $2.87/mi straight to the truck. I have the time to talk with shippers and negotiate better rates for you guys. But if you would rather spend hours and hours every day calling shippers instead of making money thats fine with me, to each his own. All I can tell you for sure is this, I would rather let someone else go to the shippers and negotiate a better rate for me because in most, of course not all situations the driver will actually make more money using a GOOD broker than on his own. Now before you guys get your shorts in a bunch let me explain. I spent many years on the other side of the steering wheel so I know the business from both sides, when I was driving I would spend hours on the phones with the shippers who may have loads in the area I was looking at and hope one of them has something decent for me to fit my schedule, eventually after years of doing that I started calling those EVIL brokers for help. In my experience after finding one I felt would work pretty hard for me I started spending more time rolling that dialing and wouldn't you know it I noticed my bottom line creeping up because after considering what this broker was doing for me I realized a 20% increase in net revenue after just 3 months. I ended up moving a lot of the same freight I had been hauling from the exact same shippers but was pocketing more money in the end even after allowing the broker to take his 10%. I guess until both sides of this argument try to live a day in each others shoes there will always be those who "Know" they're right and everyone else who disagrees is wrong. Like I've said in this very forum many times I know there ARE bad brokers out there and they are giving the honest ones a bad name, just like there ARE worthless drivers out there giving the good ones a bad name. My most recent experience with an O/O who thought the world didn't need brokers was just last week, I contacted him offering a load 44 miles from where he had an empty truck, my rate figured out to $2.97/mi on ALL miles to the truck including bounce miles, well he figured out who to call to get the load himself so took it upon himself to call my customer and offer to haul the load. My customer called me and asked if I had anyone ready to go with that load and I said I had one truck considering it, the shipper then said he just got a call from a truck offering to haul the load. I said that was fine but was curious who it was and he told me it was the truck I spoke with, the shipper explained that the truck was willing to do it cheaper and of course I understood, so in asking what the truck was willing to do it for I ran the miles and the truck did it for $2.73/mi on the LOADED miles only not including the bounce miles. I feel he left money on the table just to stick it to a broker, wow I wish I could throw money away like that. I know I just opened myself up to a few members on here to chastize me relentlessly but I'm ok with knowing that they will pick apart my post and find one little area to pick a flaw out of, blow it out of proportion to support their own thoughts and appear to poke my post full of holes. In closing let me say, you O/O's and drivers have a damn tough job, I know this from experience because I've been on both sides, I only wish that more of you would broaden your scope a little bit and see things from another angle through anothers eyes.

you are correct this is getting way too deep in off the subject but also ask yourself if you know what the difference between an owner operator in an independent trucker really is because those of us that our independence call brokers sometimes to see what they have to say to make our lives easier so in fact we are doing our leg work as a business owner just not the way you like it done but it's how we get some of our freight as the last guy said its been like that since the beginning of time

I agree with you totally Jeff .P as I usually do, this is such a joke, we went from brokering to this lazy azz worthless drivers, anyway.. you brokers pay me every Friday and the pump price vs per mile and I will work all year on the road, on time, good equipment, attitude, clean cut... new trailer and truck has dam near been rebuilt.... ANY TAKERS..........?

No sir, its a hopper, thanks anyways, you seem like a honest guy, that go's a long way with me.

Thank you Troy I appreciate that.

I understand that the conversion of the frac sand industry to mainly all pneumatic trailers has some of you searching for work with hopper bottoms and end dumps. The only thing I can offer is to help you convert over to pulling pneumatics. The fracturing process isn't going anywhere anytime soon and it's looking like it will grow in most states from Texas to Maine over the next 5 to 10 years. I currently have 30 slots needing just power units. You'll need to have a sleeper on your truck and a PTO is a plus. At this point I should mention Volvo trucks are not very well suited for this application as they need to be heavily modified to mount the blower. The company is willing to finance the blower but their mark up on it I believe is a little steep. So if you can find one prior to coming down it would be beneficial. Their install company on the other hand has installations down pat and their $1900 for installation is pretty reasonable. This company has a guaranteed daily and weekly rate program that at the very least pays the bills. I will admit the run rates are not the best in the world but it is definitely the easiest way to cut your teeth in this industry avoiding the pitfalls that many new drivers encounter.

Having said all that I should point out that this work is not for everyone. There is a physical aspect to it connecting and disconnecting hoses, climbing on top of the trailer to hook up for filling. You also won't always be running on black top. You need to be a little more on rugged side of the trucking world for these runs.

We were pulling frac sand in our hoppers and making quite a fair rate. All of a sudden a carrier promised the drilling company that he could fill the capacity with his few trucks. Now he ran out and got his brokerage license real fast and is now trying to sell the loads for cheaper then what was previous being done. How do I know this? I know the owner of the drilling company and he asked me to do the deal first. I informed him honestly, that I did not have the 25 trucks to do the job, and that I was happy working with the brokers we had been working with. Now my broker friends and I are waiting until the new guy fails at the capacity contract and possibly will loose his trucking business as well as his new brokerage license. For those of you that don't understand capacity contracts, let me explain, if you fail to meet the capacity then there are stiff penalties or charge backs to the capacity carrier. How do I know this I helped Sears write such a contract back in the 90's when I worked in law and I owned a warehouse in Alabama and was the shipper and receiver. Back then we just marked up the price of the freight to our end customer. I did not care about the cheapest bid but only the best service. The carrier that won my bid was M.S. Carriers (before Swift bought them), J.B. Hunt was cheaper but M.S. provided better service at the time, so I was willing to pay .25 per mile more for the service. When I quit building houses 8 years ago and got back into trucking, imagine my surprise when I found out that shippers and dishonest brokers, and greedy cut-throat carriers (independents included)had actually driven freight prices down from what I was paying M.S. Carriers in the 90's. I decided to be the salmon swimming upstream and run my company under my special ops code and came up with my mercenary trucking concept. Everybody told me I was crazy and it would not work. I put in my time and sucked up the $1.50 per mile chump change for the first two years. Every year since my rates go up by .35 per mile. Our service is unquestionable and our customers are willing to pay the extra money for our trucks. I tried the broker thing for a buddy of mine, he thought he could go out to Internet Truckstop and grab loads from other brokers and resell them to the carriers. I told him to go and beat the streets and be a real broker agent and get accounts from shippers direct. He could'nt do it, he thought he should be able to take money from the truck and not have to work. Now I am a good ol Missouri, boy so I had to show him how it was done. The shippers at first did not like my way of business (of course not they have been spoiled for the last 15 - 20 years by the dishonest brokers getting them cheap trucks), but the few that took the chance actually enjoyed not having to worry about their freight getting moved on time. It's amazing that when the carrier (independent) is getting paid what they are worth, that the whole operation runs smooth. Now I made 10% on the loads which was fine by me and my independent carriers as well. I showed them the rates from the shippers to me and backed out my 10%, it was an open and honest relationship. I decided when they raised the bond that I would have to give up the brokering because I enjoy managing my toys (trucks more). I also realized that in order to change the industry you have to train the industry. I figured if I could train soldiers for combat, surely I could train people to become operators of rigs. Well the problem is that soldiers wanted to be trained, whereas drivers, O/O's, and most young people today want to get more then they are worth. Yep we sure have a welfare society. I am ashamed that I fought for this country for 10 years and came home and found a largely pathetic group of Americans that believe that everybody owes them something for nothing. Trucking is a direct refection of our society as a whole, just like the military. Our work ethics are gone, we want it easy, quick, and greedy. I grew up poor and gained my wealth through hard work, sweat, and good investments. I don't pull cheap freight and if the broker/customer expects my trucks to wait while they decide they are going to load us, true to the mercenary concept we will be gone. We don't work for free. I understand extenuating circumstances. You independents know what I am talking about there are company's out there that think our time is not valuable. They don't want to pay detention, they are rude, and think because they are big name companies that they can push you around. Well if nobody is paying you to sit, we would rather sit where we want to sit. Honest brokers will get you the detention, mine are required to send me an updated rate sheet for the detention in advance or our truck will head out. Just giving some of you independents some advice, take it for what it is worth. As far as the answer to the original question. I would choose answer C, under these conditions: A: That if the map (load) was not valid that I still expected the broker to pay his portion as promised (rate sheet). B: Any delays/expenses due to the broker/customer's behalf would be compensated. C: We would follow the law and not be forced to operate our operations illegal as to goes possible harm to our equipment, operators, and others. D: The gold mine (dock/chutes/pits) will not be a mine field that our equipment has to tip toe through without tearing it up. If those conditions are not met then all bets are off. There are many gold mines out there to pull gold from.

Have you tried Reliant out of Lincoln, Ne. They have always been great to work with when we are up in NE and IA. Quick payment and good rates. For us anyways. Bunge once you get set up with them, usually pays decent as well, but you may have to wait on the delivery side with them, depending on product and location.

One should not ASSUME.. Especially if they don't know them.

For the last 35 plus years the saying is use a broker go broker.

You left out the real neat point of regulation.. We ALL made money.. And all of the trucking companies were solvent, paid the driver a good wage, and benefits. Also it was curb side or dockside.. Shipper loaded.. Receiver unloaded. Funny how that worked then .. Along with out brokers. Well actually the trucking companies brokered out their own freight that couldn't be covered.. And you were paid in 15 days or less.

There were brokers around before deregulation. Here is the history of one of the oldest acting brokers. They have been around since 1905, the are publicly traded, so you can see there profit report in their financials. They pay within 2-3 days. They have cheap freight as well as good freight. Their nickname is cheap and heavy or cold and hungry. We have pulled over 1 million in freight for them and can state the opposite of the industry (truckers opinion). I have heard owner operators and independents alike say they would never pull for CH Robinson, but I can say this they take care of us on our dry box side with rates that average $2-$2.50 per mile (all miles). So enough of the "there were no brokers before deregulation". It is true that there were fewer brokers back then. There were these entities called rate houses and they established the rates for the industry depending on the product and lanes that you had purchased to haul with your authority. It was indeed better for all under the regulatory program, because the rate houses, unions, and the Govt. worked to keep the rates up so as people would keep driving trucks and moving the economy. What happened after deregulation was that anybody with a few hundred dollars and a raggedly truck and trailer could now enter into the arena. These wannabe carriers now started to undercut the rates that had previously been established. Carriers that were union now fell by the wayside, and many went into freight brokering that was now easier to get into than before as well. So the pie remained the same but more and more people wanted a piece of the pie and the rates got lower and lower. This is a representation of greed and stupidity. I was not in trucking during this time frame so you can't blame me. I am trying to make a difference by not undercutting others on rates. As a matter of fact our company is not the cheapest but we do offer the service. I explain to both my brokers and shippers alike that what is the big deal about my price, they can just pass that on to the end consumer as shipping and handling with a 15% bump on my price. It is ludicrous to call for one of my trucks and then ask what I will haul the load for and inform me that you can't afford that. You should not have called in the first place. I have been very open and honest that if you want our trucks then you will pay our rates. I know my margins and do not need to pull freight to loose money and pad somebody elses pocket. Their are brokers out there that represent both sides, the good ones side with the trucks. They know that the load won't get moved without the truck. The only way to recapture some of the good old days is to be willing to stay true to your margins. In today's market there are fewer trucks then loads. Even when the market was bad it was cheaper for me to sit the truck for a day then pull some junk load. I bought this hopper last Feb. and have regretted it every since. I knew that hopper was the cheap of the cheap. But that being said I have managed to keep it moving at about $2.40 per mile (all miles) for the year. I have learned more by talking with old timers like Jeff, Art, and others on this website then I had learned the previous four years with the dry vans. Just like in the dry van land I have noticed that there are individuals coming in and cutting rates left and right thereby driving down the prices. Now we are a commercial carrier and do not pay our drivers cheap wages like the farm boys make. Our insurance cost is higher, and we have to run legal equipment and logs. So between the blood cutting that goes on in our industry, having to compete with subsidized trucking, and being slammed constantly by the DOT, it is now wonder that guys are hanging up their boots and saying sign me up for my welfare. They can make as much or more sitting at home watching Jerry Springer or reruns of Oprah. If you want the wages and the etiquette from the old days then you will have to make it happen. That means that you will have to stick to your price, and you will have to train new drivers with the right attitudes. The drivers that are sitting in the trucks right now just basically suck. They have little to no work ethic, the whine and cry all the time. Act like I have all the money in the world to spend on them. Well those drivers don't stay around very long at my place. They are driving for Sw*** or some other big company now. I would rather park my trucks then let boneheads tear them up. If I can be that way with the drivers don't you think I can be the same with the customer. I would rather park my truck then work for free. I believe this is the same feeling that all of us that own trucks have. So here is what we are saying to the brokers don't expect us to work for free. You should be telling the shipper the same thing. I guarantee that if the independents got it and would work with each other. Then I would be willing to turn back on the brokerage firm and we could set up a good old fashioned rate house that was for the trucks and not the shippers. But like Tom, when I offered to do that before, I had mostly whiners that expected me to work for free. So as you can see it goes both ways. The brokers expect the truckers to work for free and the truckers expect the brokers to work for free. That my brothers is a loose-loose situation. I believe that I will stick with my mercenary business model, as it has made me quite a bit of money over the last four years. I will leave you with this: Little Jack Horner sat in a corner eating his pie. He stuck in his thumb and pulled out a plumb and exclaimed OH MY!