Home > Forum > Do You Haul For Less Than 5% In You Hopper For Corn?

Do you haul for less than 5% in you Hopper for Corn?

Aug 17, 2020 at 03:06 PM CST
+ 8

Perhaps someone can explain to me why it's acceptable for Mountaire, Ardent Mills, Tyson, Allens, etc. and even us you local farmers to pay owner operators or any carrier 3% of the payout for the haul. Example: Currently corn is going for 4.00 a bushel, so loaded on a hopper equals 4K delivered give or take for the farmer or Mill. However the rate for the carrier is currently anywhere from .12 cents a bushel to .30 cents a bushel which is less than 5% of the entire payout. Even tenant farmers get paid more than that for the land the corn is growing in. They at least get 1/3. Why such a low rate for the haulers who have the most exposure to risk in this venture?

Before someone tells me that the mill and farmers need 95% of the rate because they are disenfrancished, we are a farm. However, we pay a fair rate for hauling not less than 5%. Also please don't tell me that when it's that low to just let the trucks sit, because it's this way on a lot of loads regardless of distance or product. I'm using corn as an example because it's a bit inflated currently due to issues in the WidWest.

Just curious on what other Carriers think about the low freight pricing.

Replied on Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 05:30 PM CST
+ 2

It is because they all think, especially the Brokers. That trucks are just a bunch of dumb rednecks that are there to be screwed. Case in point. Hauled a load of Fertilizer from Port Neal, IA to Grand Forks. My truck got $2.00 per mile to haul it. Would make you sick or mad to find out what the broker bills the shipper.

The point is. You are offered a load at a rate. It is up to you to take it or leave it. Sometimes if you leave it. They will call you back with a better rate. If they don't. Move on. There will always be someone that is hungry and someone that has no problem sleeping at night after spending a day cheating truckers.

Replied on Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 07:15 AM CST
+ 2 - 1
I'm going to assume that you don't personally have much to do with the farm if you think any farmer is getting paid 4 dollars per bushel for corn. What is basis where your trucks are hauling? All the names you listed, and more, are all seeing record quarterly profits amid the biggest agricultural vomit, diarrhea, puke financial disaster that producers have ever seen. EXAMPLE (I don't have my paperwork in front of me so im going from memory so dont kill me if I'm 2 cents off) a few years ago, before the bank asked me to stop failing, I mean farming, I used to sell beans to a local elevator. I don't remember my cash price for those contracts, but I think basis was usually in the 90 cent range. That same elevator would pay a truck to take those beans to elevator D in st paul for 42ish cents per bushel. Ok for 180 miles and 6ish miles from the fert load coming back. Fast forward a year or two, the elevator is now a CHS, i dont remember exactly, but i think my last contracts had basis at about a dollar and chs was advertising those loads at 25 cents per bushel for almost 200 miles, if my memory is correct. Thats a pretty pathetic rate that people are very willing to haul. The farmer, and the trucker both got the shaft because they allowed it to happen.

Its easy to dismiss the people on this forum that tell you to just say no and leave the truck sit, because you might think they don't understand your situation or something like that, but saying no is the greatest financial tool you have. Listening to the advise of those experienced people (im not talking about me) is the intelligent decision. Truckers and farmers need to stop allowing themselves to be screwed over on a large scale. Saying no increases your demand.
Replied on Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 08:01 AM CST
+ 1
Not sure I want to even comment on this. But here it goes. Sounds like socialism to me. Why are you worried what percent of the value the trucker gets based on what the farmer gets. Thats insane. Midwest is at about 3 dollar corn by the way. You post different rates for hauling but have no distants or loading and receiving conditions and we are suppose to assume what? I don't like the price of corn and beans either but productivity and weather has caused this. That is what americans do, become more efficient and productive. No doubt good and bad to that. I own farms and a trucking company, I don't like the prices for commodities or rates for trucking. I also won't start a truck for a bad rate let it sit. Problem is to many and way to many have to have all the fancy expensive tractors and of trucks. Then when things slide it is everyone elses fault. Believe me when I tell you my first truck was a 71 Freightliner with a 318, my first tractors where and old Case and Deere. Still use that old 70's Case to rake hay.
Replied on Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 09:56 AM CST
+ 1

Brokers base their rates on fuel prices, regardless of commodity. Approx 1.00 below fuel price. Then brokers B C and D take more. Last year when rates dropped to below company driver rates....THE LARGER BROKERS WERE EXPANDING AND HIRING MORE PERSONNEL AND OPENING NEW OFFICES! Some pod casted about it and boasted. I agree brokers should be more transparent on the paperwork..let's see what shipper is paying to haul and then list all brokers who are receiving $$ for that load. Besides the trade war issues, invasions from foreigners, weather disasters, communist economy....truckers should FIGHT back. Maybe we can pick one broker at a time and do not haul for them for 2 or more wks. Brokers are to quick at putting owner operators and small fleets out of business. There is no respect for the backbone that moves their products. AND LETS NOT MENTION ALL THE LARGE NATIONAL BROKERS WHO ARE NOW DOMINATING ALL LOADS OF EVERY FREIGHT!

Replied on Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 10:12 AM CST
Quote: "I'm going to assume that you don't personally have much to do with the farm if you think any farmer is getting paid 4 dollars per bushel for corn. What is basis where your trucks are hauling? All the names you listed, and more, are all seeing record quarterly profits amid the biggest agricultural vomit, diarrhea, puke financial disaster that producers have ever seen. EXAMPLE (I don't have my paperwork in front of me so im going from memory so dont kill me if I'm 2 cents off) a few years ago, before the bank asked me to stop failing, I mean farming, I used to sell beans to a local elevator. I don't remember my cash price for those contracts, but I think basis was usually in the 90 cent range. That same elevator would pay a truck to take those beans to elevator D in st paul for 42ish cents per bushel. Ok for 180 miles and 6ish miles from the fert load coming back. Fast forward a year or two, the elevator is now a CHS, i dont remember exactly, but i think my last contracts had basis at about a dollar and chs was advertising those loads at 25 cents per bushel for almost 200 miles, if my memory is correct. Thats a pretty pathetic rate that people are very willing to haul. The farmer, and the trucker both got the shaft because they allowed it to happen. Its easy to dismiss the people on this forum that tell you to just say no and leave the truck sit, because you might think they don't understand your situation or something like that, but saying no is the greatest financial tool you have. Listening to the advise of those experienced people (im not talking about me) is the intelligent decision. Truckers and farmers need to stop allowing themselves to be screwed over on a large scale. Saying no increases your demand. "

current corn price here in va is 4.31 delivered, should be the same in original post area

Replied on Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 10:34 AM CST
- 1
Quote: "current corn price here in va is 4.31 delivered, should be the same in original post area"

According to agweb, that area has a 3.90 current bid average with a .60 basis. Thats a 3.30 cash price to the producer
Replied on Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 04:30 PM CST
+ 2

Yes We are famers we own over 600 acres on the east coast under various farm names. However we are new to trucking only hauling for ourselves within the last ten years, before we contracted it out or had owner operators. We always pay our carriers a salary so never understood exactly how trucking works. Which is what the question was about.

Why does trucking in general accept less than 10% of the freight to haul it? It's not just agriculture that has this issue it's the same with Reefers, Flatbeds, Vans etc. I understand this is how it's been for 60 years but isn't it time for it to change to a different model? What does everyone think is going to happen when the law that was just passed in CA about "Contract Gig workers" now being classified as regular workers. That same ruling will affect every trucking company as well rest assured. There is no difference in a company driver hauling for a "Percentage" as a "Gig worker" they are one and the same. Matter of fact Uber and Lyft modeled their companies similiary to trucking companies.

That is why I was asking why are the rates so low? What will everyone do when it's mandatory everyone be a salaried employee and pay benifits? How exactly are carriers going to carry commodities at 12 cents a bushel and pay vacations, health insurance, workers compensation, fuel, pay, etc.? Even the owner operators will be forced to cover those things as well.

As to the comment about Socialism, I've lived in Socialism and Communism in Europe. Some Socialistic societies are much better than the American Greed system and awful in other ways. Just pray Communism never takes over. Each society has good and bad. Capitalism has it's merrits as does Socialism, but it's always wrong when a few control the whole, that creates Communism and breaks a Free marketplace.

Just wondered why trucking didn't have set pricing like farming or engineering. No one expects an engineer to work for 7.65 an hour or less once wait times and loading times are calculated in at least for some drivers.

Example: an Owner Operator we know who uses a broker carries corn from our farm from Purdue in MD to Mountaire in DE at .12 cents a bushel which equals 110.00 a load before he pays the brokers 12.5% fee. Oh that load also doesn't cover fuel surcharge since there isn't any. If you work for say Virgil Davis Trucking, or WWCIII trucking, or Fred Flinstone Trucking, they pay their drivers between 19-27% to haul those exact loads.

So lets take the top end of things and the bottom. At 27% of 110.00 for one load the driver made: 29.70 cents and it takes him two hours to make the trip on a good day with no waiting, breakdowns etc. It's 45 minutes one way for that load. The max amount of loads you can do in a day is 5, if your willing to break all the rules 6 or more. Oh and there is no back haul you go back empty. So on a good day the truck can make a little more than 500 bucks, but the driver actually made: 148.50 for more than 8 hours. Which equates to an hourly rate of: 18.56. Which is pretty good around here.

Now let me give you another example. That same load from Perdue goes to Ardent Mills in PA now everyone on the east coast knows about how awful Ardent Mills is. Meaning you must arrive the night before and pray your one of the first trucks otherwise you will miss offloading. They are only open when they feel like it and only from 6-2 exactly but they dont start offloading until 7am. They are union. Which is a bit unusual in agriculture and now I understand why so many people hate union workers. However, those rates are usually about .50-.90 cents a bushel for delivery meaning the load is typically 600 dollars. Now it is a four hour run up from Perdue and back however usually you can find a backhaul out of PA, or NJ, or Va depending. So your not hauling for 600 bucks but could be as much as 1200 - 2000 bucks. It's the same commodities, corn, wheat, soybeans etc. But lets compare apples and apples, and come back empty.

So your truck just made 600 bucks. Driver gets 162.00 However he had to spend the night but those hours don't actually count so the rate for the same period is now: 20.25 an hour. But Sammy down the street wants to haul as well right, and tells Perdue hey I can haul that load for 5 cents a bushel instead. Remember the above is what you pay your driver doesn't cover the actual costs of running the truck or overhead. So lets calculate them in:

Truck made 110.00 a load local. Milage is 30 miles one way. So per mile rate is now: 3.67 mile. Seems like a good price but you forgot your empty coming back so it's not 30 miles it's 60 miles total. Now mile rate is: 1.83 a mile. Truck uses fuel which here is 3.49 a gallon on a good day and for 60 miles uses 4.19 cents. Calculation is based on 50 mph at 6 miles to the gallon of Diesel at 3.49 a gallon. So deduct that out: 4.19 a load. Right Maintenance and Overhead costs are usually 10%: so that cost is: 11.00 a load.

So for our current load from MD to DE for a total of 60 miles comes to:

110.00 total

29.70 for driver at 27%

4.19 for fuel

11.00 for Maintenance and Overhead.

Profit is now: 65.11 for that load. Now you also owe for your share of the drivers taxes at 28%. So after you take that out now your profit is:18.23 cents.

Md to DE at 60 miles at 5 cents a bushel:

45.00 total a load

12.15 for driver at 27%

4.19 for fuel

11.00 for overhead

17.66 in profit now pay 28% in taxes for your part for the driver.

you just made 4.95 cents in profit Congradulations.

Guess I shouldn't be so upset at 12 cents huh.

This is why truckers are angry.

I sell my corn for 4000 a truckload and on one of my farms in maryland one of them which is local to Perdue is 60 acres. We haul out between 2 and 4 fully loaded hoppers per harvest depending. This harvest we sent out four loaded hoppers and stored some as well. So the farm made: 4X 4000 = 16000. for corn, we make usually twice that on soybeans since they usually sell for 8.00 a bushell pretty steadily although this year I'm not sure yet. So out of the 16000 we made the drivers were paid from us 40 cents to haul it to town. So the drivers made: 360.00 a load. Not bad money we made in profit after paying costs: 8000. Now that has to go six months but if you have outside income isn't too bad. That is one farm. Our land is owned outright so no mortgages.

But you can see why I ask the question about pay. Why would you drive for 18 dollars an hour? Lowes pays the same and you can sit all day? What will happen when the drivers realize that Virgil and WWCIII now owe them back pay and benifits for work they have done for last years etc. at 65.11 I doubt either of them would have the funds to backpay all of those drivers. But yet they keep driving down prices in the area.

Wonder what they would do if someone came in and took it all over. What's to stop a monopoly from cropping up? If you had enough trucks you certainly could under bid everyone in the marketplace and then what would happen? Guess we will wait and see Indigo Transport is trying to do exactly that. So far not having much luck but they are buying farms and granaries as fast as they can. Guess we will see.

I would just like to see the rates posted. or have a clear understanding on why carriers go on per mile rates instead of a flat rate? If carriers understood that the granary is paying farmers 4.00 a bushell perhpas they would be so inclined to haul it for under .10 cents, or at least they would know what the actual payout is upfront. Then you know if the broker is scamming and taking 40% for themselves instead of 10-15% and the brokers who charge more than 15% shame on you. Most reputable companies send out emails of the loads availalbe and its rate. Why exactly can't a broker, or other corporations do the same? Perhaps I'll work on that. Knowledge is power right?

Replied on Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 07:19 PM CST
Caitlin, the competition for the loads that you are looking at is over the top. People fight over those loads because its short haul and home every night. Short haul crosses state lines less so medical cards aren't required for not crossing lines. The higher the competition for the loads, the lower the rate. The rates are low because theres a never ending supply of under experienced people coming in and hauling cheap as heck for a year or two until the bank shuts them down and they are broke....then the next schmuck jumps on line. If basis in your area for corn is 60 cents. Dont haul corn for less than 40 cents.

You are also competing with farmers for local short haul stuff. Thry can run cheaper because if they are nearby, not crossing state lines, they dont need commercial credentials. I haven't put a conventional bean or corn kernel in my trailer for 2 years, it doesn't pay.

I agree something needs to happen, but I don't want any more handcuffs on my work ethic and business, than already are. Greed is a problem in our country, but mass ignorance is worse in my opinion. Mass ignorance makes it SOOO easy for the greedy.

Our country has had an education system that has demonized middle class jobs for 20 years, concentrated more on drugs and gender studies , and a lack of toddler discipline has cultivated a society of wimps that can't balance a check book, make a bank a decent balance sheet and have no idea what an amortization calculator is.....all those cumulative little things have made millions of people that don't know how to not be taken advantage of, and it drags everyone down. Sorry for the long rant, good luck Caitlin, its sooo tough to get going.
Replied on Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 07:46 AM CST

Yes I'm glad that trucking isn't our main buisness Farming and Engineering is, and well lots of good investments over the years. You are right about what you say and I'm equally disapointed, but some of the ones undercutting everone else have been around for more than 20-30 years doing this. Our farm has commercial and Farm Plates, but it's not legal to haul anyone else's commodities with Farm Plates for profit. Yes I understand everyone does it but it doesn't make it legal. Our farm must be legal at all times. Just a shame that in the trucking side they can't take a page from the farmers playbook or the cut throat buisness handbook and understand that by cutting rates so low you are either delivering an inferior service, driving an unmaintained truck or unlicensed driver and eventually those consequences catch up. Yes the east coast lanes are as cut throat as it gets because of the density and population and ease of entrance to the jobs. Doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it right that as a farmer I can't pay my employees who pick a decent wage either and am forced to try and find H1B Visa workers. It seems lately the only ones making it are the corporations on top.

Always remember those who have enough money will always be able to undercut you for enough time to put you out of buisness or in serious peril no matter what line of work you are in.

If anyone is looking for loads during the day in TX, AL, IN, NB, OR, LA pretty much anywhere in the midwest, let me know I have lots of loads come up with no one to haul them. Pays is pretty good nothing under 30 a ton. Had two loads yesterday for 110 and 115 a ton to NE from KY. Don't get a lot of back hauls from out there, but probably could find some as well, never have asked since we don't run out there.

Also if you have a TWIC card and are an owner operator look us up we can always use you.

Replied on Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 07:47 AM CST

I do have one more question. Someone said you didn't need a medical card to drive locally? How is that possible wouldn't you still be required to have a CDL and with that doesn't one automatically have the medical card that goes with it? I know Farmers don't need CDL's or medical cards and we can deliver over state lines but only with our personal commodities, not Sally's down the road unless you personally planted sallys grain or she sold it to you. So in your state you don't need a medical card? Wouldn't logic dictate then that the CDL also wouldn't be necessary either? How then do they drive and what happens when they are in an accident and DOT gets involved?

For the record I do not have a CDL, I can drive our rigs but only when we are hauling our own product and everyone prefers I stay out of the truck especially my farming neighbors. But our farm managers and buisness managers always are telling me for Aportioned Tags you must have a CDL with a medical card to operate the vehicles and trailers. Were they telling me incorrect? I am a bit unfamiliar with some of the legal ease regarding transportation regulations because they don't make sense to me.

I can never figure out why it's ok for me without a CDL to take my Peterbilt and Hopper over into DE for deliveries or up to ME or down to SC or FL with my own loads, but I legally can't come back with soymeal etc. from Perdue after delivering my own soybeans to the exact same mill. One day someone will explain this to me. Trucking is a very strange buisness, it's like a version of a magic show. It seems all smoke and mirrors.

Replied on Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 07:48 AM CST
Quote: "Caitlin, the competition for the loads that you are looking at is over the top. People fight over those loads because its short haul and home every night. Short haul crosses state lines less so medical cards aren't required for not crossing lines. The higher the competition for the loads, the lower the rate. The rates are low because theres a never ending supply of under experienced people coming in and hauling cheap as heck for a year or two until the bank shuts them down and they are broke....then the next schmuck jumps on line. If basis in your area for corn is 60 cents. Dont haul corn for less than 40 cents. You are also competing with farmers for local short haul stuff. Thry can run cheaper because if they are nearby, not crossing state lines, they dont need commercial credentials. I haven't put a conventional bean or corn kernel in my trailer for 2 years, it doesn't pay. I agree something needs to happen, but I don't want any more handcuffs on my work ethic and business, than already are. Greed is a problem in our country, but mass ignorance is worse in my opinion. Mass ignorance makes it SOOO easy for the greedy. Our country has had an education system that has demonized middle class jobs for 20 years, concentrated more on drugs and gender studies , and a lack of toddler discipline has cultivated a society of wimps that can't balance a check book, make a bank a decent balance sheet and have no idea what an amortization calculator is.....all those cumulative little things have made millions of people that don't know how to not be taken advantage of, and it drags everyone down. Sorry for the long rant, good luck Caitlin, its sooo tough to get going. "

Well said.

Replied on Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 07:48 AM CST
Quote: "Yes We are famers we own over 600 acres on the east coast under various farm names. However we are new to trucking only hauling for ourselves within the last ten years, before we contracted it out or had owner operators. We always pay our carriers a salary so never understood exactly how trucking works. Which is what the question was about. Why does trucking in general accept less than 10% of the freight to haul it? It's not just agriculture that has this issue it's the same with Reefers, Flatbeds, Vans etc. I understand this is how it's been for 60 years but isn't it time for it to change to a different model? What does everyone think is going to happen when the law that was just passed in CA about "Contract Gig workers" now being classified as regular workers. That same ruling will affect every trucking company as well rest assured. There is no difference in a company driver hauling for a "Percentage" as a "Gig worker" they are one and the same. Matter of fact Uber and Lyft modeled their companies similiary to trucking companies. That is why I was asking why are the rates so low? What will everyone do when it's mandatory everyone be a salaried employee and pay benifits? How exactly are carriers going to carry commodities at 12 cents a bushel and pay vacations, health insurance, workers compensation, fuel, pay, etc.? Even the owner operators will be forced to cover those things as well. As to the comment about Socialism, I've lived in Socialism and Communism in Europe. Some Socialistic societies are much better than the American Greed system and awful in other ways. Just pray Communism never takes over. Each society has good and bad. Capitalism has it's merrits as does Socialism, but it's always wrong when a few control the whole, that creates Communism and breaks a Free marketplace. Just wondered why trucking didn't have set pricing like farming or engineering. No one expects an engineer to work for 7.65 an hour or less once wait times and loading times are calculated in at least for some drivers. Example: an Owner Operator we know who uses a broker carries corn from our farm from Purdue in MD to Mountaire in DE at .12 cents a bushel which equals 110.00 a load before he pays the brokers 12.5% fee. Oh that load also doesn't cover fuel surcharge since there isn't any. If you work for say Virgil Davis Trucking, or WWCIII trucking, or Fred Flinstone Trucking, they pay their drivers between 19-27% to haul those exact loads. So lets take the top end of things and the bottom. At 27% of 110.00 for one load the driver made: 29.70 cents and it takes him two hours to make the trip on a good day with no waiting, breakdowns etc. It's 45 minutes one way for that load. The max amount of loads you can do in a day is 5, if your willing to break all the rules 6 or more. Oh and there is no back haul you go back empty. So on a good day the truck can make a little more than 500 bucks, but the driver actually made: 148.50 for more than 8 hours. Which equates to an hourly rate of: 18.56. Which is pretty good around here. Now let me give you another example. That same load from Perdue goes to Ardent Mills in PA now everyone on the east coast knows about how awful Ardent Mills is. Meaning you must arrive the night before and pray your one of the first trucks otherwise you will miss offloading. They are only open when they feel like it and only from 6-2 exactly but they dont start offloading until 7am. They are union. Which is a bit unusual in agriculture and now I understand why so many people hate union workers. However, those rates are usually about .50-.90 cents a bushel for delivery meaning the load is typically 600 dollars. Now it is a four hour run up from Perdue and back however usually you can find a backhaul out of PA, or NJ, or Va depending. So your not hauling for 600 bucks but could be as much as 1200 - 2000 bucks. It's the same commodities, corn, wheat, soybeans etc. But lets compare apples and apples, and come back empty. So your truck just made 600 bucks. Driver gets 162.00 However he had to spend the night but those hours don't actually count so the rate for the same period is now: 20.25 an hour. But Sammy down the street wants to haul as well right, and tells Perdue hey I can haul that load for 5 cents a bushel instead. Remember the above is what you pay your driver doesn't cover the actual costs of running the truck or overhead. So lets calculate them in: Truck made 110.00 a load local. Milage is 30 miles one way. So per mile rate is now: 3.67 mile. Seems like a good price but you forgot your empty coming back so it's not 30 miles it's 60 miles total. Now mile rate is: 1.83 a mile. Truck uses fuel which here is 3.49 a gallon on a good day and for 60 miles uses 4.19 cents. Calculation is based on 50 mph at 6 miles to the gallon of Diesel at 3.49 a gallon. So deduct that out: 4.19 a load. Right Maintenance and Overhead costs are usually 10%: so that cost is: 11.00 a load. So for our current load from MD to DE for a total of 60 miles comes to: 110.00 total 29.70 for driver at 27% 4.19 for fuel 11.00 for Maintenance and Overhead. Profit is now: 65.11 for that load. Now you also owe for your share of the drivers taxes at 28%. So after you take that out now your profit is:18.23 cents. Md to DE at 60 miles at 5 cents a bushel: 45.00 total a load 12.15 for driver at 27% 4.19 for fuel 11.00 for overhead 17.66 in profit now pay 28% in taxes for your part for the driver. you just made 4.95 cents in profit Congradulations. Guess I shouldn't be so upset at 12 cents huh. This is why truckers are angry. I sell my corn for 4000 a truckload and on one of my farms in maryland one of them which is local to Perdue is 60 acres. We haul out between 2 and 4 fully loaded hoppers per harvest depending. This harvest we sent out four loaded hoppers and stored some as well. So the farm made: 4X 4000 = 16000. for corn, we make usually twice that on soybeans since they usually sell for 8.00 a bushell pretty steadily although this year I'm not sure yet. So out of the 16000 we made the drivers were paid from us 40 cents to haul it to town. So the drivers made: 360.00 a load. Not bad money we made in profit after paying costs: 8000. Now that has to go six months but if you have outside income isn't too bad. That is one farm. Our land is owned outright so no mortgages. But you can see why I ask the question about pay. Why would you drive for 18 dollars an hour? Lowes pays the same and you can sit all day? What will happen when the drivers realize that Virgil and WWCIII now owe them back pay and benifits for work they have done for last years etc. at 65.11 I doubt either of them would have the funds to backpay all of those drivers. But yet they keep driving down prices in the area. Wonder what they would do if someone came in and took it all over. What's to stop a monopoly from cropping up? If you had enough trucks you certainly could under bid everyone in the marketplace and then what would happen? Guess we will wait and see Indigo Transport is trying to do exactly that. So far not having much luck but they are buying farms and granaries as fast as they can. Guess we will see. I would just like to see the rates posted. or have a clear understanding on why carriers go on per mile rates instead of a flat rate? If carriers understood that the granary is paying farmers 4.00 a bushell perhpas they would be so inclined to haul it for under .10 cents, or at least they would know what the actual payout is upfront. Then you know if the broker is scamming and taking 40% for themselves instead of 10-15% and the brokers who charge more than 15% shame on you. Most reputable companies send out emails of the loads availalbe and its rate. Why exactly can't a broker, or other corporations do the same? Perhaps I'll work on that. Knowledge is power right?"

You are the east coast its all jammed up..Out here in Corn country you can haul loads all day for 2.10-2.50 loaded..And can do it mostly loadd both ways..Yes need to be 3 dollars..

Replied on Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 07:48 AM CST

I wanna know where ya selling grain for 4 bucks? Its 3.25 cash in KCMO....Most trucks from N. Missouri to KC get 30 cents ..Been that way a very very long time and now fuel is fairly cheap.....Yes it should be .40 cents..

Replied on Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 10:09 AM CST
Quote: "Yes We are famers we own over 600 acres on the east coast under various farm names. However we are new to trucking only hauling for ourselves within the last ten years, before we contracted it out or had owner operators. We always pay our carriers a salary so never understood exactly how trucking works. Which is what the question was about. Why does trucking in general accept less than 10% of the freight to haul it? It's not just agriculture that has this issue it's the same with Reefers, Flatbeds, Vans etc. I understand this is how it's been for 60 years but isn't it time for it to change to a different model? What does everyone think is going to happen when the law that was just passed in CA about "Contract Gig workers" now being classified as regular workers. That same ruling will affect every trucking company as well rest assured. There is no difference in a company driver hauling for a "Percentage" as a "Gig worker" they are one and the same. Matter of fact Uber and Lyft modeled their companies similiary to trucking companies. That is why I was asking why are the rates so low? What will everyone do when it's mandatory everyone be a salaried employee and pay benifits? How exactly are carriers going to carry commodities at 12 cents a bushel and pay vacations, health insurance, workers compensation, fuel, pay, etc.? Even the owner operators will be forced to cover those things as well. As to the comment about Socialism, I've lived in Socialism and Communism in Europe. Some Socialistic societies are much better than the American Greed system and awful in other ways. Just pray Communism never takes over. Each society has good and bad. Capitalism has it's merrits as does Socialism, but it's always wrong when a few control the whole, that creates Communism and breaks a Free marketplace. Just wondered why trucking didn't have set pricing like farming or engineering. No one expects an engineer to work for 7.65 an hour or less once wait times and loading times are calculated in at least for some drivers. Example: an Owner Operator we know who uses a broker carries corn from our farm from Purdue in MD to Mountaire in DE at .12 cents a bushel which equals 110.00 a load before he pays the brokers 12.5% fee. Oh that load also doesn't cover fuel surcharge since there isn't any. If you work for say Virgil Davis Trucking, or WWCIII trucking, or Fred Flinstone Trucking, they pay their drivers between 19-27% to haul those exact loads. So lets take the top end of things and the bottom. At 27% of 110.00 for one load the driver made: 29.70 cents and it takes him two hours to make the trip on a good day with no waiting, breakdowns etc. It's 45 minutes one way for that load. The max amount of loads you can do in a day is 5, if your willing to break all the rules 6 or more. Oh and there is no back haul you go back empty. So on a good day the truck can make a little more than 500 bucks, but the driver actually made: 148.50 for more than 8 hours. Which equates to an hourly rate of: 18.56. Which is pretty good around here. Now let me give you another example. That same load from Perdue goes to Ardent Mills in PA now everyone on the east coast knows about how awful Ardent Mills is. Meaning you must arrive the night before and pray your one of the first trucks otherwise you will miss offloading. They are only open when they feel like it and only from 6-2 exactly but they dont start offloading until 7am. They are union. Which is a bit unusual in agriculture and now I understand why so many people hate union workers. However, those rates are usually about .50-.90 cents a bushel for delivery meaning the load is typically 600 dollars. Now it is a four hour run up from Perdue and back however usually you can find a backhaul out of PA, or NJ, or Va depending. So your not hauling for 600 bucks but could be as much as 1200 - 2000 bucks. It's the same commodities, corn, wheat, soybeans etc. But lets compare apples and apples, and come back empty. So your truck just made 600 bucks. Driver gets 162.00 However he had to spend the night but those hours don't actually count so the rate for the same period is now: 20.25 an hour. But Sammy down the street wants to haul as well right, and tells Perdue hey I can haul that load for 5 cents a bushel instead. Remember the above is what you pay your driver doesn't cover the actual costs of running the truck or overhead. So lets calculate them in: Truck made 110.00 a load local. Milage is 30 miles one way. So per mile rate is now: 3.67 mile. Seems like a good price but you forgot your empty coming back so it's not 30 miles it's 60 miles total. Now mile rate is: 1.83 a mile. Truck uses fuel which here is 3.49 a gallon on a good day and for 60 miles uses 4.19 cents. Calculation is based on 50 mph at 6 miles to the gallon of Diesel at 3.49 a gallon. So deduct that out: 4.19 a load. Right Maintenance and Overhead costs are usually 10%: so that cost is: 11.00 a load. So for our current load from MD to DE for a total of 60 miles comes to: 110.00 total 29.70 for driver at 27% 4.19 for fuel 11.00 for Maintenance and Overhead. Profit is now: 65.11 for that load. Now you also owe for your share of the drivers taxes at 28%. So after you take that out now your profit is:18.23 cents. Md to DE at 60 miles at 5 cents a bushel: 45.00 total a load 12.15 for driver at 27% 4.19 for fuel 11.00 for overhead 17.66 in profit now pay 28% in taxes for your part for the driver. you just made 4.95 cents in profit Congradulations. Guess I shouldn't be so upset at 12 cents huh. This is why truckers are angry. I sell my corn for 4000 a truckload and on one of my farms in maryland one of them which is local to Perdue is 60 acres. We haul out between 2 and 4 fully loaded hoppers per harvest depending. This harvest we sent out four loaded hoppers and stored some as well. So the farm made: 4X 4000 = 16000. for corn, we make usually twice that on soybeans since they usually sell for 8.00 a bushell pretty steadily although this year I'm not sure yet. So out of the 16000 we made the drivers were paid from us 40 cents to haul it to town. So the drivers made: 360.00 a load. Not bad money we made in profit after paying costs: 8000. Now that has to go six months but if you have outside income isn't too bad. That is one farm. Our land is owned outright so no mortgages. But you can see why I ask the question about pay. Why would you drive for 18 dollars an hour? Lowes pays the same and you can sit all day? What will happen when the drivers realize that Virgil and WWCIII now owe them back pay and benifits for work they have done for last years etc. at 65.11 I doubt either of them would have the funds to backpay all of those drivers. But yet they keep driving down prices in the area. Wonder what they would do if someone came in and took it all over. What's to stop a monopoly from cropping up? If you had enough trucks you certainly could under bid everyone in the marketplace and then what would happen? Guess we will wait and see Indigo Transport is trying to do exactly that. So far not having much luck but they are buying farms and granaries as fast as they can. Guess we will see. I would just like to see the rates posted. or have a clear understanding on why carriers go on per mile rates instead of a flat rate? If carriers understood that the granary is paying farmers 4.00 a bushell perhpas they would be so inclined to haul it for under .10 cents, or at least they would know what the actual payout is upfront. Then you know if the broker is scamming and taking 40% for themselves instead of 10-15% and the brokers who charge more than 15% shame on you. Most reputable companies send out emails of the loads availalbe and its rate. Why exactly can't a broker, or other corporations do the same? Perhaps I'll work on that. Knowledge is power right?"

You forgot to mention the lawsuit involving new prime, that went all the way to the Supreme Court, where the court sided with the drivers. Right now insurance companies loss ratios for commercial liability are exceeding 109%, So insurance companies are starting to think hourly pay may be what’s required to break the cycle. The supply chain may not like it, but fortunately they don’t control the insurance industry like they do the trucking industry, so I believe that’s where change is most likely to come from at this point.
Replied on Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 11:09 AM CST
I agree with some of what you've said Caitlin, but where I disagree is that trucking needs to learn from farmers. Trucking would grind to a halt if it was ran emotionally like farmers do. I personally think the fmcsa is a great example. The rules seem more emotional than logical.

Farmers will pay a stupidly high rent just because the neighbors did. Take a financial loss on acres just to have those acres so that they can brag about farming 4000 acres at the coffee shop. They look at the Chicago board of trade and say "wow, corn prices are shit....guess I'll plant half the farm to corn again" and to describe the worst kind of farmer, the kind I was, always have a full time 40 hr a week job to pick up the financial slack of the black hole that is in your wallet.
Replied on Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 02:13 PM CST
Caitlin . You are correct that the truck hauling other people's stuff from a to z needs a driver with cdl and medical card and also intrastate loads also need the same credentials. Now if you haul only your own stuff you fall under different regulations that I cant tell you what they all are so yes you can't bring that return load of sbm from Perdue like you described in your example unless you buy it and use it on your farm.
Replied on Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 09:31 AM CST
Dale I see the same thing over here in trucking, it’s mostly driven by ego, day after day I drive by the same fleet operations, and a third of the trucks in their yard never move, none of them can keep drivers, yet they keep buying more trucks? Everyone of them will tell you how good the money is, yet now of them can afford to pay a driver by the hourly, and complete with other industries?
Replied on Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 07:03 AM CST
Quote: "Caitlin, the competition for the loads that you are looking at is over the top. People fight over those loads because its short haul and home every night. Short haul crosses state lines less so medical cards aren't required for not crossing lines. The higher the competition for the loads, the lower the rate. The rates are low because theres a never ending supply of under experienced people coming in and hauling cheap as heck for a year or two until the bank shuts them down and they are broke....then the next schmuck jumps on line. If basis in your area for corn is 60 cents. Dont haul corn for less than 40 cents. You are also competing with farmers for local short haul stuff. Thry can run cheaper because if they are nearby, not crossing state lines, they dont need commercial credentials. I haven't put a conventional bean or corn kernel in my trailer for 2 years, it doesn't pay. I agree something needs to happen, but I don't want any more handcuffs on my work ethic and business, than already are. Greed is a problem in our country, but mass ignorance is worse in my opinion. Mass ignorance makes it SOOO easy for the greedy. Our country has had an education system that has demonized middle class jobs for 20 years, concentrated more on drugs and gender studies , and a lack of toddler discipline has cultivated a society of wimps that can't balance a check book, make a bank a decent balance sheet and have no idea what an amortization calculator is.....all those cumulative little things have made millions of people that don't know how to not be taken advantage of, and it drags everyone down. Sorry for the long rant, good luck Caitlin, its sooo tough to get going. "

your saying i won't get a participation trophy or ribbon. SO UNFAIR!
Replied on Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 07:03 AM CST
Quote: "Dale I see the same thing over here in trucking, it’s mostly driven by ego, day after day I drive by the same fleet operations, and a third of the trucks in their yard never move, none of them can keep drivers, yet they keep buying more trucks? Everyone of them will tell you how good the money is, yet now of them can afford to pay a driver by the hourly, and complete with other industries? "

THE BIG ONES TRY TO PRAY ON IGNORANCE THROUGH THEIR LEASE PURCHASE SCAMS AND ARE ABLE TO CUT THE RATES DOWN WITH SLAVES.
Replied on Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 11:17 AM CST
+ 2

OP, you should really try to understand all of the numbers of your farm operation. If you think you are "making" $16,000 on your corn or $32,000 for beans that is lunacy. Do you get all of your inputs and equipment for free? Do your beans yield the same as your corn? Come on.

I understand you are located on the east coast so your basis and land costs are likely different from the midwest. You say you own the farm, are you not applying any costs to the land portion, such as taxes, opportunity cost of the cash value, etc?

Here is a typical central Iowa farm operation's costs per acre for 2020:

Corn Beans
Seed 105 55
Fertilizer 60 45
Anhydrous 55
Herbicide 30 35
Crop insurance 29 27
Grain Drying 9
Grain Storage 19 5
Trucking 20 7
Misc 10 10
Interest on costs 10 8
Rent 225 225
Machinery 100 95
Labor 40 40
Total cost 712 552

These are actual numbers averaged from my farm and others that I work with as a farm business consultant. I am also an O/O and do take some hopper loads in the offseason while coops are needing to move product to end users or rail locations. So I'm sympathetic to the general concept of shitty rates. But you cannot for one second think it makes sense to haul as a percentage of the gross value of a commodity load without considering costs that go into making that commodity. I'm not going to argue individual costs here, rent or land costs can vary widely, but feel free to calculate on your own.

Now, if you can average 200 bushels per acre on corn, current cash price for harvest delivery at a local cooperative is $2.98/bu, if you have the time or ability to haul to ethanol you could get $3.25... hell let's say you sold some ahead, will store some to take advantage of market carry and narrower basis next summer, and you can overall average $3.50 per bushel. That is $700/ac gross revenue, or a loss of $12 per acre.

You say soybeans make twice as much? Typically, soybeans yield about 25-30% per acre of what corn does. In central Iowa, you can average 55-60 bushels an acre in a good year. Current quotes for fall delivery are $8.34/bu... so let's assume $8.50 if you were great at marketing this year, since the price has just risen 30-40 cents recently. 60 bushels times $8.50 is $510 gross per acre. In the above scenario, you lose $42 per acre.

If your land costs are $50/ac for just opportunity cost, taxes, etc.... well, you are making something but.... you get the point. Just don't try to preach farming profitability if you don't know what you're talking about please.

Replied on Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 07:01 AM CST
Quote: "OP, you should really try to understand all of the numbers of your farm operation. If you think you are "making" $16,000 on your corn or $32,000 for beans that is lunacy. Do you get all of your inputs and equipment for free? Do your beans yield the same as your corn? Come on. I understand you are located on the east coast so your basis and land costs are likely different from the midwest. You say you own the farm, are you not applying any costs to the land portion, such as taxes, opportunity cost of the cash value, etc? Here is a typical central Iowa farm operation's costs per acre for 2020: Corn Beans Seed 105 55 Fertilizer 60 45 Anhydrous 55 Herbicide 30 35 Crop insurance 29 27 Grain Drying 9 Grain Storage 19 5 Trucking 20 7 Misc 10 10 Interest on costs 10 8 Rent 225 225 Machinery 100 95 Labor 40 40 Total cost 712 552 These are actual numbers averaged from my farm and others that I work with as a farm business consultant. I am also an O/O and do take some hopper loads in the offseason while coops are needing to move product to end users or rail locations. So I'm sympathetic to the general concept of shitty rates. But you cannot for one second think it makes sense to haul as a percentage of the gross value of a commodity load without considering costs that go into making that commodity. I'm not going to argue individual costs here, rent or land costs can vary widely, but feel free to calculate on your own. Now, if you can average 200 bushels per acre on corn, current cash price for harvest delivery at a local cooperative is $2.98/bu, if you have the time or ability to haul to ethanol you could get $3.25... hell let's say you sold some ahead, will store some to take advantage of market carry and narrower basis next summer, and you can overall average $3.50 per bushel. That is $700/ac gross revenue, or a loss of $12 per acre. You say soybeans make twice as much? Typically, soybeans yield about 25-30% per acre of what corn does. In central Iowa, you can average 55-60 bushels an acre in a good year. Current quotes for fall delivery are $8.34/bu... so let's assume $8.50 if you were great at marketing this year, since the price has just risen 30-40 cents recently. 60 bushels times $8.50 is $510 gross per acre. In the above scenario, you lose $42 per acre. If your land costs are $50/ac for just opportunity cost, taxes, etc.... well, you are making something but.... you get the point. Just don't try to preach farming profitability if you don't know what you're talking about please. "

Well I sure wouldn't haul the grain for percentage of net profit. Now for every net there is a gross which I believe is what is being referred to. At least that's how the majority of Americans would go about business.
Replied on Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 03:45 PM CST
+ 2
Quote: "OP, you should really try to understand all of the numbers of your farm operation. If you think you are "making" $16,000 on your corn or $32,000 for beans that is lunacy. Do you get all of your inputs and equipment for free? Do your beans yield the same as your corn? Come on. I understand you are located on the east coast so your basis and land costs are likely different from the midwest. You say you own the farm, are you not applying any costs to the land portion, such as taxes, opportunity cost of the cash value, etc? Here is a typical central Iowa farm operation's costs per acre for 2020: Corn Beans Seed 105 55 Fertilizer 60 45 Anhydrous 55 Herbicide 30 35 Crop insurance 29 27 Grain Drying 9 Grain Storage 19 5 Trucking 20 7 Misc 10 10 Interest on costs 10 8 Rent 225 225 Machinery 100 95 Labor 40 40 Total cost 712 552 These are actual numbers averaged from my farm and others that I work with as a farm business consultant. I am also an O/O and do take some hopper loads in the offseason while coops are needing to move product to end users or rail locations. So I'm sympathetic to the general concept of shitty rates. But you cannot for one second think it makes sense to haul as a percentage of the gross value of a commodity load without considering costs that go into making that commodity. I'm not going to argue individual costs here, rent or land costs can vary widely, but feel free to calculate on your own. Now, if you can average 200 bushels per acre on corn, current cash price for harvest delivery at a local cooperative is $2.98/bu, if you have the time or ability to haul to ethanol you could get $3.25... hell let's say you sold some ahead, will store some to take advantage of market carry and narrower basis next summer, and you can overall average $3.50 per bushel. That is $700/ac gross revenue, or a loss of $12 per acre. You say soybeans make twice as much? Typically, soybeans yield about 25-30% per acre of what corn does. In central Iowa, you can average 55-60 bushels an acre in a good year. Current quotes for fall delivery are $8.34/bu... so let's assume $8.50 if you were great at marketing this year, since the price has just risen 30-40 cents recently. 60 bushels times $8.50 is $510 gross per acre. In the above scenario, you lose $42 per acre. If your land costs are $50/ac for just opportunity cost, taxes, etc.... well, you are making something but.... you get the point. Just don't try to preach farming profitability if you don't know what you're talking about please. "

The profit and loss of my customers business has little to do with mine other than a little empathy if they are struggling. Maybe some price adjustments are made. If they can't afford the service, don't buy it. You can't let someone elses poor business situation take you down with them.

Replied on Mon, Sep 07, 2020 at 06:34 AM CST
+ 2

We haul seed corn in the winter - could be $200,000 on a load

We haul fertilizer year round that is $10,000 per load

I have never once thought I deserve a percentage of what the load is worth - how does that even make sense? All I care about is miles and the highest price per mile that we can negotiate. It doesn't matter if we are hauling corn, beans, wheat, steel, or TP its all about the price per mile.

Disclaimer - we farm and truck, we truck a lot more than we farm.

Replied on Mon, Sep 07, 2020 at 07:33 AM CST
+ 3
Read through this post a few times scratching my head, wondering if I was the only one that realized this original post made no sense. I see others agree with me. The total value of the corn in the truck has nothing to do with the trucking rate........period.
Replied on Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 02:06 PM CST
Could'nt have said it better, surprised that wasn't the first thing mentioned. If we get paid percentage of load value instead of mileage, or hourly rates, screw this, no more feed commodities, haul nothing less than a D-12 Dozer for me! i wanna make the BIG BUCKS!!!