Home > Forum > Double Brokering??

Double Brokering??

Jan 18, 2023 at 08:20 AM CST
+ 21
Why is it acceptable and tolerated for one broker takes a load from another broker and stil takes 10% or more???
Replied on Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 08:07 AM CST

Call the trucking company that has a lot of loads out of grand forks.

Replied on Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 08:08 AM CST

It depends on if the shipper is aware of the second brokers involvment on the load. If everyone is in the loop on this type of situation it is considered co-brokering and it is ok. If the 1st broker doesn't have the network to move the load and passes it off to a 2nd broker with a larger network without letting the shipper know then this is double brokering and in many cases is illegal and can hurt everyone in that supply chain. Here is an article that goes into more detail and how you can file reports on brokers and carriers that double broker loads without paying.


What is double brokering and is it illegal?

Replied on Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 01:50 PM CST
+ 1

Double brokering only exist because some drivers are willing to take the crumbs leftover after the load is brokered twice. It's happened to me when I've needed a load in a pinch, or was trying to make a certain lane work. You can tell it's double brokered just by looking at the paperwork. In the end, loads that are double brokered just don't pay enough to make a lane work. I have worked with several brokerages on this load board over the past 9 or so months and have narrowed down just a couple that are worth running loads for.

Replied on Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 04:07 PM CST
Quote: "Double brokering only exist because some drivers are willing to take the crumbs leftover after the load is brokered twice. It's happened to me when I've needed a load in a pinch, or was trying to make a certain lane work. You can tell it's double brokered just by looking at the paperwork. In the end, loads that are double brokered just don't pay enough to make a lane work. I have worked with several brokerages on this load board over the past 9 or so months and have narrowed down just a couple that are worth running loads for. "

Wheat mids are 190 ton in grand forks

call any feed lot go to work

loose mids 170.
call get order number. Load only weekend

i haul a lot of them

Replied on Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 08:48 PM CST
Quote: "Wheat mids are 190 ton in grand forks call any feed lot go to work loose mids 170. call get order number. Load only weekend i haul a lot of them "

What do you haul them in hopper or belt trailer? How much can you get on a load?

Replied on Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 08:27 AM CST

Hopper no problem. 6.00 per loaded mile

buy distillers dry and haul to feed lots same price

this company in sd is ripping haulers. Paying pennies.

no problem getting legal loads.
stop by any elevator and ask for screenings

Replied on Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 08:28 AM CST
+ 1

From my perspective as a broker of nearly 29 years. I don't know of anyone that would willfully give their load to another broker to cover. I get contacted daily from "carriers" that are looking to cover my loads. When I check some carriers in my system they are part of a double brokering scam. There are hundreds if not thousands of companies that do that. They take the load and then turn it over to another "branch" and re broker out. Some Landstar Agents are nothing but double brokering agents. We no longer work with Landstar and many other "carriers" that act the same way. If they screw the carriers, we're going to be possibly liable to pay twice on the loads. Everyone please do your due dilligence on anyone that is offering you freight.

Replied on Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 06:59 AM CST

As noted. Bulkloads pulled my other posts was told they would look into the statements

dish tv is a lot like bulkloads

both are marketing a product. Pay to advertise on either BL claims you don't pay to list loads. But you can't list loads unless a purchased membership. So a person does pay to list.

BULKLOADS. IT IS TIME TO STEP UP AND STOP THE DOUBLE BROKERING

we had the phone conversation today then you pulled the contents aka free speech

Replied on Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 09:49 AM CST
+ 1

"Why is it acceptable and tolerated for one broker takes a load from another broker and stil takes 10% or more???"

I think the simple answer is, the trucks allow it to happen, or don't know any better. Either way, it sucks, and helps keep the rates down for everyone else....

Replied on Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 04:49 PM CST
Now I’m going back to my trucking detox, I don’t have to go back to work until the frost comes out of the ground, been on a seasonal strike ever since all my brothers sold me out in 2017.
Replied on Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 04:50 PM CST
+ 1
Quote: ""Why is it acceptable and tolerated for one broker takes a load from another broker and stil takes 10% or more???" I think the simple answer is, the trucks allow it to happen, or don't know any better. Either way, it sucks, and helps keep the rates down for everyone else...."

A better question would be why do we stay in a industry with 100% turnover? Unless we are so Psychologically damaged that we can’t function anywhere else? If the shippers owned the trucks they would have to pay the truck driver more than the forklift drivers, but by outsourcing it they are able to work the trucker twice as many hours as the forklift operator, for the same yearly figure.
Replied on Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 09:53 AM CST
Quote: "Now I’m going back to my trucking detox, I don’t have to go back to work until the frost comes out of the ground, been on a seasonal strike ever since all my brothers sold me out in 2017."

Good for you Dave enjoy the time off. I parked mine right before Thanksgiving.. I will admit, I've done about everything I can possibly do at home, and going stir crazy, ready to get back to work, however, I'm gonna hold out a while longer. I'm just not going to subsidize someone else's profitability.

Replied on Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 12:55 PM CST
Quote: "It depends on if the shipper is aware of the second brokers involvment on the load. If everyone is in the loop on this type of situation it is considered co-brokering and it is ok. If the 1st broker doesn't have the network to move the load and passes it off to a 2nd broker with a larger network without letting the shipper know then this is double brokering and in many cases is illegal and can hurt everyone in that supply chain. Here is an article that goes into more detail and how you can file reports on brokers and carriers that double broker loads without paying. What is double brokering and is it illegal?"

Respectfully, I disagree. The shippers awareness is moot. When they hire a broker there is no law that says they have to be aware of who all is involved in the transport. All they have to know is the broker they hired is getting it moved, presumably legally. "Double Brokering", legally speaking, is specifically when a Carrier, with only a carrier authority, performs the duties of a broker by passing a load tendered to them to another carrier. A load can not be "Double Brokered" between two brokering authorities.

For example, as a carrier I took a load from Lizzy’s World, a brokerage. They got the load from a carrier who received it directly from another broker who had the customer. Lizzy's World then refused to pay me for it. I won my claim against their bond, but the lawyers were clear that Lizzy's World wasn't guilty or liable for the double brokering part, only the carrier who accepted the shipment from another broker was liable because they "brokered" the load to another entity without having a brokering authority to legally do so.

On another load of which I was the broker, I didn't have a truck in a very specific lane. A broker from TQL did. I booked the load with him and he booked his truck. We "Co-Brokered" that load. My customer had no idea how I got their shipment delivered, only that I did. Legally, I have the ability to book loads with carriers or other brokers. The industry frowns on double brokering because it increases the risk for the broker with the truck. That broker is on the hook for paying the truck regardless of receiving payment from me. If I didn't pay them, it becomes a big legal battle and can quickly become a hot mess. Ultimately, I would end up paying TQL in the end. The rule of thumb for brokers is to NOT Co-Broker just to avoid that potential trouble and headaches.

Replied on Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 04:27 PM CST

"Double Brokering", legally speaking, is specifically when a Carrier, with only a carrier authority, performs the duties of a broker by passing a load tendered to them to another carrier. A load can not be "Double Brokered" between two brokering authorities."

Sorry, but that's the typical broker's definition. In your scenario, a carrier without brokerage authority is merely unauthorized brokering. Two brokers each taking a separate commission is double brokering, hence 1+1= 2. Two brokers sharing a single commission is co-brokering. As your rich uncle Joe would say, "Come on man" it's not that difficult... I'm not arguing legality, I'm arguing common sense..

'Additionally, your scenario where you didn't have a truck but TQL did, I'm throwing my big red BS flag, since the invention of the internet, most if not all, Brokers have access to the same trucks.

'Just my opinion, offered because I'm bored today, than you.!!!

Replied on Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 07:53 PM CST
+ 1
Quote: "A better question would be why do we stay in a industry with 100% turnover? Unless we are so Psychologically damaged that we can’t function anywhere else? If the shippers owned the trucks they would have to pay the truck driver more than the forklift drivers, but by outsourcing it they are able to work the trucker twice as many hours as the forklift operator, for the same yearly figure."

I think the crap is getting a bit deep here. If you are an O/O working for a forklift operators wage than you have only yourself to blame.

If a load pays $7 a mile on a 500 mile run but it's double brokered would you care?.... probably not.

Replied on Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 08:07 AM CST
+ 1
Quote: "I think the crap is getting a bit deep here. If you are an O/O working for a forklift operators wage than you have only yourself to blame. If a load pays $7 a mile on a 500 mile run but it's double brokered would you care?.... probably not. "

That would be my point. If you're satisfied with the rate what do you care? An error on their part doesn't mean a sacrifice on your part.

Replied on Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 10:11 AM CST
Quote: "I think the crap is getting a bit deep here. If you are an O/O working for a forklift operators wage than you have only yourself to blame. If a load pays $7 a mile on a 500 mile run but it's double brokered would you care?.... probably not. "

I totally agree, I'm a firm believer that we are our own worst enemy. As for the $7.00 a mile double brokered load goes, you're right, as long as I get my number, I don't care. The problem is, they never pay $7.00, it's more like $2.50, which is where the the bad feelings come from. In my opinion, if the only way a broker can find a truck is to double broker the load, they aren't trying too hard to cover it. Maybe mankind would be better served, if they can't cover the load, give it to someone that can rather than try to make a few quick bucks off of it at the trucks expense. Every time someone takes a cut, the truck gets squeezed. The problem is, many truck owners don't know the difference, think the rates are just low, and take it. This brings me right back to, we are our own worst enemy.

Replied on Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 01:00 PM CST
- 1
Quote: "I think the crap is getting a bit deep here. If you are an O/O working for a forklift operators wage than you have only yourself to blame. If a load pays $7 a mile on a 500 mile run but it's double brokered would you care?.... probably not. "

A truckers work day is based on 14 hours, his logbook gives him 70 hours, if he works 50 weeks a year and takes two weeks off for vacation that equates to 3500 hours a year, the department of labor puts a truckers median wage at $48,310.00 anually, so $48,310.00 divided by 3500 equalls $13.80 a hour, but even if we use their top number of $72,730.00 and divide it by 3500 it only comes out to $20.78 a hour, and thats assuming he's only running one log book and not using any exemtions, still below what a forkift operator makes. The term owner operator is not very impressive, it just means you have more expenses than a company guy and less leverage than a actual fleet when it comes to negoiating rates, probably translating into less money after expenses than a company driver. Since you think I'm full of it, here is a link to the beuro of labor statistic's, and a link to a forklift job on craigslist. Heavy and Tractor-Trailer Truck Drivers (bls.gov) minneapolis jobs "warehouse forklift" - craigslist

Replied on Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 01:01 PM CST

The way this should work, the party that can't perform and has to reach out for help comes away with nothing. Or loses money. I have no proof but I think it's possible that brokers come and go as fast as truck drivers.

Replied on Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 03:19 PM CST
Quote: "The way this should work, the party that can't perform and has to reach out for help comes away with nothing. Or loses money. I have no proof but I think it's possible that brokers come and go as fast as truck drivers."

Yes sir, if we don't perform, we go broke too, seems fair to me. With the internet, if you can't find a truck, we don't need you on the team anyway. I've always felt that the; "one broker has the load, and another has the truck", is more of an excuse than a reason..

Replied on Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 06:56 AM CST
As soon as TQL is involved I'm out. If I have to sign how many page broker agreement that states that broker is working for a certain percentage, they damn well better stick to it. I don't care what it pays that broker doesn't care about me and they'll hang me in a second on any back charge technicality they can. If it's on paper stick to it. Art Pfluger
Replied on Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 08:41 AM CST

I have a question for Mr. Balthrop and Mr. Winters about a hypothetical situation. Say I am a carrier who buys and sells grain from farmers and elevators so that I can keep a steady work load for my drivers. Thru this scenario I buy grain from elevator A and they in turn give me fertilizer loads to go with the grain that I have purchased. I then have a couple of other carriers help me with these rounds for a small single digit percentage of the rate. Is this what you call double brokering or brokering without a license. I even go so far as to pay my carriers for loads they have hauled before I get paid. Is this legal or am I ok with this situation? Any positive thoughts would be appreciated.

Replied on Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 09:44 AM CST
Quote: "I have a question for Mr. Balthrop and Mr. Winters about a hypothetical situation. Say I am a carrier who buys and sells grain from farmers and elevators so that I can keep a steady work load for my drivers. Thru this scenario I buy grain from elevator A and they in turn give me fertilizer loads to go with the grain that I have purchased. I then have a couple of other carriers help me with these rounds for a small single digit percentage of the rate. Is this what you call double brokering or brokering without a license. I even go so far as to pay my carriers for loads they have hauled before I get paid. Is this legal or am I ok with this situation? Any positive thoughts would be appreciated."

It depends; in this HYPOTHETICAL situation, does it occur on a Tuesday or Thursday after the noon hour or before? I personally don't like hypotherical or "what if" questions because they can be posed to get the desired answer, and are not real situations, hence hypothetical. If this is a real question dealing in specifics regarding your business, I'll be happy to take a stab at it.

Replied on Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 09:44 AM CST
Quote: "I have a question for Mr. Balthrop and Mr. Winters about a hypothetical situation. Say I am a carrier who buys and sells grain from farmers and elevators so that I can keep a steady work load for my drivers. Thru this scenario I buy grain from elevator A and they in turn give me fertilizer loads to go with the grain that I have purchased. I then have a couple of other carriers help me with these rounds for a small single digit percentage of the rate. Is this what you call double brokering or brokering without a license. I even go so far as to pay my carriers for loads they have hauled before I get paid. Is this legal or am I ok with this situation? Any positive thoughts would be appreciated."

If you bought the product you own it, therefore you are now the shipper and not brokering at all, now putting all that aside all a carrier has to do is get broker authority and suddenly he becomes immune from the whole mess, but nobody seems capable of understanding this, if government sticks there nose in this you will just end up with more carrier’s acquiring broker authority and more dispatch services getting broker authority too, probably leading to more fingers in the pie ( it’s law of unintended consequences). Personally I think government would be better off leaving the whole broker thing alone and focusing more on the drivers wages, I.e. eliminating the FLSA exemption. If a carrier wants to work for free that’s his business, but there is no reason the employees should be forced to pay for their bosses stupidity, it’s that dynamic that’s been driving all the safety problems.
Replied on Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:45 AM CST

Just like Dave said, If, you own the product, and, you're also a registered broker with FMCSA, you're good to go. Go crazy. Hopefully you aren't paying your carriers $2.00 a mile. Now, in the hypothetical scenario, you're a carrier with brokerage authority, and you hire TQL to move the loads and you take your minimal single digit percentage, and TQL also takes a cut, THEN you are a double brokerer..

I'll refrain from all the government stuff, Dave covered it, except for the E-log debacle.

Dave, the trucking de-toxing isn't going so well. You fell off the wagon again. :)

Replied on Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:58 AM CST

Hello Again Ryan,

I just realized where you're located. holy cow man, why don't you own a fleet of boat trailers and pull every boat Cobalt makes? I worked directly for them for a couple years back in the 90's. The're awesome people who build a product second to none. I was in Neodesha all the time and really liked it there. Julie and Kelly are sisters who arranged all of the loads, and their mom was the recptionist. I was there so often she knew my voice when I called. I miss those days and those people. Everyone at that plant was a pleasure to work with. When I made a delivery, I put it in the wind right back to the plant to get another. It was awesome only being loaded 50% of the time, and knowing what I was doing three weeks in advance.

Replied on Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 12:57 PM CST

Contracted loads. Aka not paid when picked up and giving them to other o/o is double brokering. If you own the load you can have anyone haul it

phone conversation with the rule makers say this

Replied on Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 02:38 PM CST
Quote: "Contracted loads. Aka not paid when picked up and giving them to other o/o is double brokering. If you own the load you can have anyone haul it phone conversation with the rule makers say this"

Ah, but you can give them to a owner operator as long is he is leased to your authority, however you can’t give them to a owner operator who has his own authority........ So the owner operator just gets his own authority and bypasses you, and now you have more competition in the market degrading rates, not less. Has anyone thought about that? It’s all supply and demand, as long as demand exists someone will supply the truck.
Replied on Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 03:25 PM CST
Quote: "Contracted loads. Aka not paid when picked up and giving them to other o/o is double brokering. If you own the load you can have anyone haul it phone conversation with the rule makers say this"

Who would the rule makers be?

Replied on Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 08:55 PM CST
Quote: "It depends; in this HYPOTHETICAL situation, does it occur on a Tuesday or Thursday after the noon hour or before? I personally don't like hypotherical or "what if" questions because they can be posed to get the desired answer, and are not real situations, hence hypothetical. If this is a real question dealing in specifics regarding your business, I'll be happy to take a stab at it."

I don't want to say whether or not my business deals this way for fear of retaliation or someone nosing around in the business that I am conducting. I would however be open to visiting with either Dave or Barry on the about my situation. First email me directly and I will give out phone number. [email protected]

Replied on Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 08:56 PM CST

So I have looked into the brokering license thing in the past and the way that I understand it is you get a specification from FMCSA and you get a bond that is based upon your yearly freight earnings. Then you have to pay a bond "premium" and therefore making you take a bigger percentage from the carrier and the gov't gets to stick their fingers in it too. Have I missed anything? If all the bond is doing is giving the carrier piece mind about me paying them then why not do it the way I said; I pay the carrier before I get paid and then everybody is happy. I'm sorry if I might seem dense about this subject but enlighten me if you can...

Replied on Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 08:56 PM CST
Quote: "As noted. Bulkloads pulled my other posts was told they would look into the statements dish tv is a lot like bulkloads both are marketing a product. Pay to advertise on either BL claims you don't pay to list loads. But you can't list loads unless a purchased membership. So a person does pay to list. BULKLOADS. IT IS TIME TO STEP UP AND STOP THE DOUBLE BROKERING we had the phone conversation today then you pulled the contents aka free speech "

Don't think BL would do anything....Circle A brokers uses BL load list on their website. Somebody knows somebody. So Circle A takes a cut from the broker who posted the load on BL..there should atleast be a limit on how many "brokers" can take a cut off the same load. But they all say...I am dealing directly with tge shipper. But nobody will answer or show what's the shipper paying. The shippers rate is so low now, but there are truckers who will work for nothing. Industry is in horrible shape.

Replied on Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 09:04 PM CST
Quote: "So I have looked into the brokering license thing in the past and the way that I understand it is you get a specification from FMCSA and you get a bond that is based upon your yearly freight earnings. Then you have to pay a bond "premium" and therefore making you take a bigger percentage from the carrier and the gov't gets to stick their fingers in it too. Have I missed anything? If all the bond is doing is giving the carrier piece mind about me paying them then why not do it the way I said; I pay the carrier before I get paid and then everybody is happy. I'm sorry if I might seem dense about this subject but enlighten me if you can..."

Hey Ryan,

The cost of the bond is determined by the volume your brokreage does in a year not the carrier portion of you operation. The bond should cost somewhere in the $1,400.00 per year range until your volume goes beyond a certain threshold. They are not too expensive. Check out Bondsdirect.com. I use them for my overweight bonds in a few of the states I run in, and have forun them to be very easy to work with. In your scenario, you would need to be a broker in order to do it correctly, however I am in no way telling you how to run your business.