Home > Forum > Stop Bending Over For Cheap Rates!!!

Stop bending over for cheap rates!!!

Mar 20, 2020 at 01:57 PM CST
+ 44 - 1
If you want to be a smart business person stop taking loads just to drive around and do a favor to people that take full advantage of your limited knowledge of how to use a simple calculator!!!
Replied on Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 10:26 AM CST
+ 1
Tell them their heroes, and it’s their patriotic duty to hual for free, and they will line up all day long for a buck a mile, and Bragg about it on spacebook.
Replied on Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 03:44 PM CST
+ 1
Originally Posted by: DAVE WINTERS
Quote: "Tell them their heroes, and it’s their patriotic duty to hual for free, and they will line up all day long for a buck a mile, and Bragg about it on spacebook."

Gee, Dave. I guess I'm not patrotic enough. I like to haul at a profitable level.

Replied on Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 07:47 AM CST
+ 2

Now in defense of the unknowing guy or gal taking loads for say .48cents a bushel for 130miles. Perhaps they haul for a broker who sometimes refuses to give haul rate until after the trucks are loaded. In the state next to us a grainery sold their entire six silo loads of wheat to a broker for a price I wont disclose since they are actively looking for carriers to haul it for yes not kidding 48 cents a bushel. To go 128 miles North. Works out to be 300 bucks roughly at 80k lbs. That is not including the six tolls you pay as well. So unless you have a backhaul you didnt just haul for free you paid them to haul the commodity to its destination, after you take out fuel, and maintenance. Before anyone asks no they don't pay fuel surcharge either nor wait times. Their are two entities on here in two different locations that are hauling for between. 40 cents and 48 cents a bushel. Ironically one was for organic corn that I sell off one of our farms for anywhere from 50-100 dollars a bushel. Sometimes its sad to see the carriers getting screwed so badly by the brokers. We can also broker but currently not worth the hassle. The big corporations dont want to pay anymore either, sometimes takes us 60-90 days to get paid. So i understand the brokers points, but keeping 30% off the top and then still charging 10-15% as a fee on top is ridiculous. I had hoped these load boards would change that but am not seeing it. In our area 90% are broker loads. So perhaps it would be a better practice to help the unknowing that anything under 18.00 a ton probably isnt worth hauling unless the fuel surcharge is outstanding and since that is federally mandated about 18 anymore should be a general guideline to use.

Also calculate the rate out first. Commodities typically go by bushel or ton. Your bill of laden will always give lbs typically some also include bushels. The math is easy here is an example:

Total weight loaded (offloading wt.) 80000lbs or 934 bushels approximately. (NOTE: MAX WT by law is 80k tons for Hoppers Loaded)

SO then, you take your rate say 48 cents a bushel and divide it into the typical amount of bushels in a ton or approximately 58 bushels.

.48/58= 0.00827

Then you take that number and multiply it by your wt in lbs. MINUS YOUR TRACTOR WT.

80000-29000 = 51000LBS

SO RATE WOULD BE: 51000 X 0.00827 = 421.77 TOTAL RATE without fuel surcharge. If they pay fuel you would add that in = 16% currently.

So, 421.77 x .16 = 67.4832

Totaling: 489.25. Now some of you guys like it in a per mile price format so then take total and divide by total miles driven. If you deadhead back then double the mileage.

So for our example we went 128 miles North makes it: 3.82 a mile seems a good price but now subtract the fuel and tolls.

Tolls are average 48 each toll. 48 x 6= 288.00

Fuel costs are currently 2.48gal here for diesel. Took 1/4 tank. Our tanks hold 150 gallons of fuel so cost is: 37.50 one way.

Subtract out those two mandatory items now your real profit would be: 96.27 for a three hour drive one way with two hours for loading and unloading for a total of five hours equals: 19.254 hr.

So now anyone can calculate their real costs easily and see what your really making when you haul loads under 15 bucks.

Hope that heps. From one Veteran to another it doesn't pay to haul for 20 bucks an hour typically. Walmart pays the same rate with overtime in our area for 18.00-23.00 an hour. Of course our now new base pay rate is 15.00 an hour for everyone in our county. Keep in mind they get overtime as well and medical even if its subpar.

If you cant see why its hard to hire and retain drivers when the owner operator is only making 20 bucks an hour how are you going to pay for the actual truck and maintenance with those prices. They werent included above since they are so varied.

Its in every carriers interest to educate the new drivers and owner operators so that they understand how economics works, its a misnomer that cutting the rate will ensure you get the loads. Probably temporarily but now you just set a precedent for everyone else by doing that. So instead of getting 30 dollars a ton you took 10, now every other driver has to do the same, and that spreads until a group says duh we are going broke we aren't going to haul at this rate anymore and they move to flatbed or reefer or dry vans etc... taking that same philosophy with them.... now you see why everyone is getting 1.00 a mile when especially now they should be getting 5-10 a mile or at least 5 a mile. But there not because people are sheep and dumb as bricks mostly. Obviously.

So happy driving for your 9.00 an hour you just made because most likely you didn't have a load back. Perhaps try Walmart I hear there hiring so that everyone else can go back to expecting realistic prices.

Replied on Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 08:36 AM CST
+ 5

"Now in defense of the unknowing guy or gal taking loads for say .48cents a bushel for 130miles. Perhaps they haul for a broker who sometimes refuses to give haul rate until after the trucks are loaded."

Any carrier that loads their equipment and doesn't know what they're going to get paid for it deserves to go bankrupt.

Replied on Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 01:12 PM CST
Originally Posted by: CAITLIN HUDSON
Quote: "Now in defense of the unknowing guy or gal taking loads for say .48cents a bushel for 130miles. Perhaps they haul for a broker who sometimes refuses to give haul rate until after the trucks are loaded. In the state next to us a grainery sold their entire six silo loads of wheat to a broker for a price I wont disclose since they are actively looking for carriers to haul it for yes not kidding 48 cents a bushel. To go 128 miles North. Works out to be 300 bucks roughly at 80k lbs. That is not including the six tolls you pay as well. So unless you have a backhaul you didnt just haul for free you paid them to haul the commodity to its destination, after you take out fuel, and maintenance. Before anyone asks no they don't pay fuel surcharge either nor wait times. Their are two entities on here in two different locations that are hauling for between. 40 cents and 48 cents a bushel. Ironically one was for organic corn that I sell off one of our farms for anywhere from 50-100 dollars a bushel. Sometimes its sad to see the carriers getting screwed so badly by the brokers. We can also broker but currently not worth the hassle. The big corporations dont want to pay anymore either, sometimes takes us 60-90 days to get paid. So i understand the brokers points, but keeping 30% off the top and then still charging 10-15% as a fee on top is ridiculous. I had hoped these load boards would change that but am not seeing it. In our area 90% are broker loads. So perhaps it would be a better practice to help the unknowing that anything under 18.00 a ton probably isnt worth hauling unless the fuel surcharge is outstanding and since that is federally mandated about 18 anymore should be a general guideline to use. Also calculate the rate out first. Commodities typically go by bushel or ton. Your bill of laden will always give lbs typically some also include bushels. The math is easy here is an example: Total weight loaded (offloading wt.) 80000lbs or 934 bushels approximately. (NOTE: MAX WT by law is 80k tons for Hoppers Loaded) SO then, you take your rate say 48 cents a bushel and divide it into the typical amount of bushels in a ton or approximately 58 bushels. .48/58= 0.00827 Then you take that number and multiply it by your wt in lbs. MINUS YOUR TRACTOR WT. 80000-29000 = 51000LBS SO RATE WOULD BE: 51000 X 0.00827 = 421.77 TOTAL RATE without fuel surcharge. If they pay fuel you would add that in = 16% currently. So, 421.77 x .16 = 67.4832 Totaling: 489.25. Now some of you guys like it in a per mile price format so then take total and divide by total miles driven. If you deadhead back then double the mileage. So for our example we went 128 miles North makes it: 3.82 a mile seems a good price but now subtract the fuel and tolls. Tolls are average 48 each toll. 48 x 6= 288.00 Fuel costs are currently 2.48gal here for diesel. Took 1/4 tank. Our tanks hold 150 gallons of fuel so cost is: 37.50 one way. Subtract out those two mandatory items now your real profit would be: 96.27 for a three hour drive one way with two hours for loading and unloading for a total of five hours equals: 19.254 hr. So now anyone can calculate their real costs easily and see what your really making when you haul loads under 15 bucks. Hope that heps. From one Veteran to another it doesn't pay to haul for 20 bucks an hour typically. Walmart pays the same rate with overtime in our area for 18.00-23.00 an hour. Of course our now new base pay rate is 15.00 an hour for everyone in our county. Keep in mind they get overtime as well and medical even if its subpar. If you cant see why its hard to hire and retain drivers when the owner operator is only making 20 bucks an hour how are you going to pay for the actual truck and maintenance with those prices. They werent included above since they are so varied. Its in every carriers interest to educate the new drivers and owner operators so that they understand how economics works, its a misnomer that cutting the rate will ensure you get the loads. Probably temporarily but now you just set a precedent for everyone else by doing that. So instead of getting 30 dollars a ton you took 10, now every other driver has to do the same, and that spreads until a group says duh we are going broke we aren't going to haul at this rate anymore and they move to flatbed or reefer or dry vans etc... taking that same philosophy with them.... now you see why everyone is getting 1.00 a mile when especially now they should be getting 5-10 a mile or at least 5 a mile. But there not because people are sheep and dumb as bricks mostly. Obviously. So happy driving for your 9.00 an hour you just made because most likely you didn't have a load back. Perhaps try Walmart I hear there hiring so that everyone else can go back to expecting realistic prices."

I'm in Canada, I'm trying to understand. Are you saying you get paid "x" dollars for 80,000 lbs, which would include the weight of the truck and the product?

How does that work? Since truck and trailer weights vary so much, why would anyone pay the weight of someone's truck and commoditiy. In Canada we get paid by the wieght of the pay load.

Or damn, have I been getting screwed.

Replied on Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 01:12 PM CST
Originally Posted by: David Krouse
Quote: ""Now in defense of the unknowing guy or gal taking loads for say .48cents a bushel for 130miles. Perhaps they haul for a broker who sometimes refuses to give haul rate until after the trucks are loaded." Any carrier that loads their equipment and doesn't know what they're going to get paid for it deserves to go bankrupt. "

David, I find it unbelievable that a carrier / O.O. would ever agree to take a load without knowing what the rate was going to be. Also, I'm no longer going to suggest what haulers need to do to get rates to a more reasonable and profitable level. I've given up.

Replied on Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 01:12 PM CST
+ 1

There has been a lot of talk about the "green horns" in some of these threads. I have to get this off my chest. What happened to the opportunity that brought you "green horns" into this business? Or was there any? Did a shipper or broker approach you saying we need trucks?

Replied on Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 06:33 PM CST
Originally Posted by: JERRY ASHLEY
Quote: "David, I find it unbelievable that a carrier / O.O. would ever agree to take a load without knowing what the rate was going to be. Also, I'm no longer going to suggest what haulers need to do to get rates to a more reasonable and profitable level. I've given up."

I feel your pain, sir. Just when I think I've seen it all something like the above scenario appears. I'm utterly amazed that someone would even defend such an action. I'm trying very hard to have hope that there's some sort of pertinent detail that's been left out to explain such a self-destructive business decision.

Replied on Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 07:02 PM CST
+ 4

Now you can talk all the trash you want about dumb owner operators etc etc but you said yourself 90% of the laods in your area are brokered. If its 90% and they refuse to pay anymore than they do what do you do? It's you the shipper that is giving all the work to the brokers because youre lazy and don't want to make more than a few phone calls to get some trucks....brokers and shippers are in bed together and then blame the truck for being a dumb ass and going broke. Use your brain and ask yourself what you really care about more production at a faster rate with less cost, or the owner operator who can't be on the phone with you all day booking loads and running the truck at the same time...if you did the work and called on The trucks you needed instead of sitting at a desk all day worrying about gossiping with the girl or guy down the hall the trucks would gladly haul for you. But its easier to call a broker once then 50 different trucks to get your material hauled. So next time you want to be a smart ass about math just remember 2+2=4 in every language and every country. Everything is always blame the truck take the easy way out blame the trucks the trucks the trucks. If it weren't for the trucks none of us would have a job including you....nonsence makes me crazy i swear!!! 90% brokered=10%not do the math genius, 5% of the other 10% are the brokers trucks so that leaves 5% of us to go up against an industry that everybody would die without so who wins you tell me...i guarantee you farm out all your trucking to a broker and then sit on here and talk trash about how its sad to see the OO get screwed...so do your job instead of giving it all away to save a buck or 2 and the industry would straighten out..brokering should be illegal as far as I'm concerned. If that was the case it would slow production down enough there would always be a job and a constant rate of good econemy. You're all just so greedy for that all mighty dollar you cant see what's right in front of your face. When it all blows up we'll see who's laughing cause you're gonna be begging for trucks so bad it's gonna be rediculous and theres going to be limited so be careful what and who you talk shit about because what hoes around comes around and what goes up will come down. It's a law of physics, an inflexible law beyond the power of man that nobody can change it just happens, and it's gonna happen soon enough. Maybe not in my lifetime but it sure is going to shit faster than you think....100 years ago to now, and what's happening...lol! Never know maybe I will see it in my lifetime but i hope not cause it's gonna be bad, real bad....long story short...a shipper in bed with a broker= stealing and talking shit about OOs and then bragging about it. It should be mandated (since it is legal) that 25% be added to all rates for fuel, maintenance etc, and brokered dispatches get 12.5 % of the gross from the OO. 100% of rate goes to the truck. So thats 125% to the truck if its dispatched through a broker the broker can get 12.5% of the gross when it's done. If you work for a broker everyday at the end of the year you give them 12.5% of your gross like a tax sort of thing and all this shit would stop real fast. Trucks would be able to make a descent living brokers would have to get a real job and shippers would have to do their own work for getting trucks to haul their material or product. 👈 thats a period by the way! Good day!

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 07:44 AM CST
Stop fighting and arguing please stick together the money is there they don't want to give it up 1200 a day minimum 9 hr day maybe 10
Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 08:54 AM CST

Stick to your guns on YOUR rate or park your equipment. It's not rocket science. If you can't afford to park your equipment you should reconsider your profession. Look at the the rates on the website below in your region. If you still want to run for cheap don't come here crying about it. Perhaps you should lease on to a carrier that knows what they're doing.

https://lanehoney.com/

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 06:39 PM CST
Originally Posted by: CAITLIN HUDSON
Quote: "Now in defense of the unknowing guy or gal taking loads for say .48cents a bushel for 130miles. Perhaps they haul for a broker who sometimes refuses to give haul rate until after the trucks are loaded. In the state next to us a grainery sold their entire six silo loads of wheat to a broker for a price I wont disclose since they are actively looking for carriers to haul it for yes not kidding 48 cents a bushel. To go 128 miles North. Works out to be 300 bucks roughly at 80k lbs. That is not including the six tolls you pay as well. So unless you have a backhaul you didnt just haul for free you paid them to haul the commodity to its destination, after you take out fuel, and maintenance. Before anyone asks no they don't pay fuel surcharge either nor wait times. Their are two entities on here in two different locations that are hauling for between. 40 cents and 48 cents a bushel. Ironically one was for organic corn that I sell off one of our farms for anywhere from 50-100 dollars a bushel. Sometimes its sad to see the carriers getting screwed so badly by the brokers. We can also broker but currently not worth the hassle. The big corporations dont want to pay anymore either, sometimes takes us 60-90 days to get paid. So i understand the brokers points, but keeping 30% off the top and then still charging 10-15% as a fee on top is ridiculous. I had hoped these load boards would change that but am not seeing it. In our area 90% are broker loads. So perhaps it would be a better practice to help the unknowing that anything under 18.00 a ton probably isnt worth hauling unless the fuel surcharge is outstanding and since that is federally mandated about 18 anymore should be a general guideline to use. Also calculate the rate out first. Commodities typically go by bushel or ton. Your bill of laden will always give lbs typically some also include bushels. The math is easy here is an example: Total weight loaded (offloading wt.) 80000lbs or 934 bushels approximately. (NOTE: MAX WT by law is 80k tons for Hoppers Loaded) SO then, you take your rate say 48 cents a bushel and divide it into the typical amount of bushels in a ton or approximately 58 bushels. .48/58= 0.00827 Then you take that number and multiply it by your wt in lbs. MINUS YOUR TRACTOR WT. 80000-29000 = 51000LBS SO RATE WOULD BE: 51000 X 0.00827 = 421.77 TOTAL RATE without fuel surcharge. If they pay fuel you would add that in = 16% currently. So, 421.77 x .16 = 67.4832 Totaling: 489.25. Now some of you guys like it in a per mile price format so then take total and divide by total miles driven. If you deadhead back then double the mileage. So for our example we went 128 miles North makes it: 3.82 a mile seems a good price but now subtract the fuel and tolls. Tolls are average 48 each toll. 48 x 6= 288.00 Fuel costs are currently 2.48gal here for diesel. Took 1/4 tank. Our tanks hold 150 gallons of fuel so cost is: 37.50 one way. Subtract out those two mandatory items now your real profit would be: 96.27 for a three hour drive one way with two hours for loading and unloading for a total of five hours equals: 19.254 hr. So now anyone can calculate their real costs easily and see what your really making when you haul loads under 15 bucks. Hope that heps. From one Veteran to another it doesn't pay to haul for 20 bucks an hour typically. Walmart pays the same rate with overtime in our area for 18.00-23.00 an hour. Of course our now new base pay rate is 15.00 an hour for everyone in our county. Keep in mind they get overtime as well and medical even if its subpar. If you cant see why its hard to hire and retain drivers when the owner operator is only making 20 bucks an hour how are you going to pay for the actual truck and maintenance with those prices. They werent included above since they are so varied. Its in every carriers interest to educate the new drivers and owner operators so that they understand how economics works, its a misnomer that cutting the rate will ensure you get the loads. Probably temporarily but now you just set a precedent for everyone else by doing that. So instead of getting 30 dollars a ton you took 10, now every other driver has to do the same, and that spreads until a group says duh we are going broke we aren't going to haul at this rate anymore and they move to flatbed or reefer or dry vans etc... taking that same philosophy with them.... now you see why everyone is getting 1.00 a mile when especially now they should be getting 5-10 a mile or at least 5 a mile. But there not because people are sheep and dumb as bricks mostly. Obviously. So happy driving for your 9.00 an hour you just made because most likely you didn't have a load back. Perhaps try Walmart I hear there hiring so that everyone else can go back to expecting realistic prices."

This right here is why our trucks are parked until the rates come up.

Replied on Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 08:12 AM CST
+ 2

The only way rates are going to increase is when everyone, nation wide, refuses to haul anything below a designated base rate to insure a decent profit. And when brokers quit stealing so much from the shippers actual rate, which is why I deal directly with shippers and not with brokers.

Replied on Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 09:44 AM CST
+ 1 - 1
Originally Posted by: JERRY ASHLEY
Quote: "The only way rates are going to increase is when everyone, nation wide, refuses to haul anything below a designated base rate to insure a decent profit. And when brokers quit stealing so much from the shippers actual rate, which is why I deal directly with shippers and not with brokers. "

THERE IS NO SUCH NUMBER!! Natural selection. Supply and demand. Survival of the fittest. Brokers are in the same game.

Replied on Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 04:19 PM CST
+ 1

I tried with 6 companies I was hauling for, to go direct. No Brokers. I talked at least 2 hours to all their transportation officers, Everything was going good on the conversations until they asked how many trucks do you own? ONE, Reaction, Oh we would have to write to many checks and make to many phone calls. Cost to much money. My reply was you would rather give the loads to brokers that steal off the top because They told me what they were paying the brokers and 4 of the brokers were taking $600.00 to $750 off the top and then taking their 10%. their answer to that was thats my problem. Needless to say I dont haul for them anymore.

Replied on Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 04:51 PM CST
- 2
Originally Posted by: DALE CONRAD
Quote: "I tried with 6 companies I was hauling for, to go direct. No Brokers. I talked at least 2 hours to all their transportation officers, Everything was going good on the conversations until they asked how many trucks do you own? ONE, Reaction, Oh we would have to write to many checks and make to many phone calls. Cost to much money. My reply was you would rather give the loads to brokers that steal off the top because They told me what they were paying the brokers and 4 of the brokers were taking $600.00 to $750 off the top and then taking their 10%. their answer to that was thats my problem. Needless to say I dont haul for them anymore. "

That's a pretty cruddy way to do business. You were ok hauling for them at the agreed upon rate before you tried to back door them. Why stop? I'm certain the shippers called their contacts and they cut YOU from their rosters. You got what you deserved. I'm not happy with the amount the brokerages are taking but if I get what I need I'm fine with it and back dooring them without just cause is ultimately plain slimey.

Replied on Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 09:57 PM CST
Originally Posted by: David Krouse
Quote: "That's a pretty cruddy way to do business. You were ok hauling for them at the agreed upon rate before you tried to back door them. Why stop? I'm certain the shippers called their contacts and they cut YOU from their rosters. You got what you deserved. I'm not happy with the amount the brokerages are taking but if I get what I need I'm fine with it and back dooring them without just cause is ultimately plain slimey. "

Dave, I disagree, to a certain extent. When Rob and I started out 2 1/2 years ago, I played the boards. The brokers I was using did not keep me very busy with any particular shipper. When Rob would arrive at a shipper he got the name of the transportation supervisor. Then, a couple of weeks later without returning to this shipper, I'd send him a personally addressed carrier packet. He did not remember our hauling anything for him and I didn't volunteer information about the past load. This way he figured I was brand new to him and he appreciated the experience listed on our paper work.

I would never drop off our company info to a shipper while under a brokered load to them. To me that's totally unethical. However, since Rob carries envelopes containing our profile, he has actually dropped off this information to companies next to, or down the street from, a place he was loading/unloading at. It took quite a few; however, one of the shippers out east read our info and gave me a call and now we haul quite a bit with them. My sister, and finance officer, has travelled around northern Illinois doing the same thing. Of course, she probably gets better reception because she's a pretty blond. Persaverence pays off. And I don't wait for shippers to call me. I call them and this way they can't complain about having to make too many phone calls. I seem to receive more calls from shippers/brokers who are desperate because they can't get their cheap ass freight hauled.

Dale, when asked how may trucks we have I simply say we have a small fleet. If they really press I lie and say "Six". (Not yet anyway) Yeah, as much as I hate lies, I have on a couple of occasions. Haven't you been lied to in this industry? If not, you must be a cherry boy! hehehehehehe

Replied on Thu, Apr 02, 2020 at 07:09 AM CST
+ 1
Originally Posted by: JERRY ASHLEY
Quote: "Dave, I disagree, to a certain extent. When Rob and I started out 2 1/2 years ago, I played the boards. The brokers I was using did not keep me very busy with any particular shipper. When Rob would arrive at a shipper he got the name of the transportation supervisor. Then, a couple of weeks later without returning to this shipper, I'd send him a personally addressed carrier packet. He did not remember our hauling anything for him and I didn't volunteer information about the past load. This way he figured I was brand new to him and he appreciated the experience listed on our paper work. I would never drop off our company info to a shipper while under a brokered load to them. To me that's totally unethical. However, since Rob carries envelopes containing our profile, he has actually dropped off this information to companies next to, or down the street from, a place he was loading/unloading at. It took quite a few; however, one of the shippers out east read our info and gave me a call and now we haul quite a bit with them. My sister, and finance officer, has travelled around northern Illinois doing the same thing. Of course, she probably gets better reception because she's a pretty blond. Persaverence pays off. And I don't wait for shippers to call me. I call them and this way they can't complain about having to make too many phone calls. I seem to receive more calls from shippers/brokers who are desperate because they can't get their cheap ass freight hauled. Dale, when asked how may trucks we have I simply say we have a small fleet. If they really press I lie and say "Six". (Not yet anyway) Yeah, as much as I hate lies, I have on a couple of occasions. Haven't you been lied to in this industry? If not, you must be a cherry boy! hehehehehehe"

Sales efforts are good. However once the carrier signs an agreement there's almost always a back solicitation clause in there. They should honor said clause (and/or negotiate one they do agree with) unless the other party breaks the agreement on their end. If we don't follow contracts/promises/word what will we be left with? It's the glue that binds us all whether we like it or not. If you or anyone else breaks the agreement without just cause then it's piss poor business IMO.

Replied on Thu, Apr 02, 2020 at 02:41 PM CST
+ 1

I never back doored anybody, I told them that I had a Really good feeling something wasnt right. When you talk to other carriers and the rate is different then its time to investegate. I found out they were taking money that was owed me, not the broker who has an office and a phone and computor. The trouble I see is that too many people are wishy washy and wont stand up for what is ours. I have a right to know what the rate is paid. You want to continue to run your bussiness that way go ahead. But when the freight rate keeps dropping and the broker says thats all I can get it is time to check it out. Ive been in the trucking business for 52 years. Ive caught a lot of brokers stealing off the top. You be wishy washy I'm not. I have been very sucessful being this way. Yall take care God Bless

Replied on Thu, Apr 02, 2020 at 06:02 PM CST
- 1
Originally Posted by: DALE CONRAD
Quote: "I never back doored anybody, I told them that I had a Really good feeling something wasnt right. When you talk to other carriers and the rate is different then its time to investegate. I found out they were taking money that was owed me, not the broker who has an office and a phone and computor. The trouble I see is that too many people are wishy washy and wont stand up for what is ours. I have a right to know what the rate is paid. You want to continue to run your bussiness that way go ahead. But when the freight rate keeps dropping and the broker says thats all I can get it is time to check it out. Ive been in the trucking business for 52 years. Ive caught a lot of brokers stealing off the top. You be wishy washy I'm not. I have been very sucessful being this way. Yall take care God Bless"

So there was NOT a single back solicitation clause in your written agreement with NONE of those FIVE brokers? I find that incredibly difficult to believe. I've caught brokers stealing accessorials, yes. That's unacceptable and I would back solicit in a heartbeat in that situation if I were actually interested in their customer. Most of the time though, their customers are garbage anyway. But Stealing off the top? I have no idea what that means. The rate between the broker's customer and myself is none of my business once I've agreed to a rate myself. There's no "stealing" there. They take a bite out of the rate. This is common knowledge. I can't believe I'm sitting here defending brokers! It's true though...it's not stealing. You shouldn't have agreed to a rate you weren't happy with. Also, rates between carriers are going to be different since we all charge differently. Using that as an excuse to be morally bankrupt isn't as valid excuse IMO. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Replied on Thu, Apr 02, 2020 at 06:49 PM CST
+ 1
Originally Posted by: DALE CONRAD
Quote: "I never back doored anybody, I told them that I had a Really good feeling something wasnt right. When you talk to other carriers and the rate is different then its time to investegate. I found out they were taking money that was owed me, not the broker who has an office and a phone and computor. The trouble I see is that too many people are wishy washy and wont stand up for what is ours. I have a right to know what the rate is paid. You want to continue to run your bussiness that way go ahead. But when the freight rate keeps dropping and the broker says thats all I can get it is time to check it out. Ive been in the trucking business for 52 years. Ive caught a lot of brokers stealing off the top. You be wishy washy I'm not. I have been very sucessful being this way. Yall take care God Bless"

If someone was stealing from me I'd call the sheriff. Or...

Replied on Fri, Apr 03, 2020 at 11:32 AM CST
What does your contract say? Is your compensation based on a percentage of revenue? If the answer is yes, then it is absolutely your business what the broker collected from the shipper, any lawyer will tell you that. If the broker failed to honor the contract, it becomes nullified.
Replied on Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 07:44 AM CST
After a few days of panic buying the stores were wiped out, and they couldn't get enough trucks fast enough and rates jumped. Now imagine if people parked their trucks for a long weekend for a couple weeks in a row. If you ran your truck 1/3 less you'd get paid 50% more. If guys didn't learn that lesson they weren't paying attention.
Replied on Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 08:52 AM CST
Originally Posted by: MICHAEL TSCHIDA
Quote: "After a few days of panic buying the stores were wiped out, and they couldn't get enough trucks fast enough and rates jumped. Now imagine if people parked their trucks for a long weekend for a couple weeks in a row. If you ran your truck 1/3 less you'd get paid 50% more. If guys didn't learn that lesson they weren't paying attention."

Bingo! I haven't loaded my wagon in weeks. Carriers not raising rates and/or parking right now are making a huge mistake.

Replied on Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 10:08 AM CST
Originally Posted by: DALE CONRAD
Quote: "I never back doored anybody, I told them that I had a Really good feeling something wasnt right. When you talk to other carriers and the rate is different then its time to investegate. I found out they were taking money that was owed me, not the broker who has an office and a phone and computor. The trouble I see is that too many people are wishy washy and wont stand up for what is ours. I have a right to know what the rate is paid. You want to continue to run your bussiness that way go ahead. But when the freight rate keeps dropping and the broker says thats all I can get it is time to check it out. Ive been in the trucking business for 52 years. Ive caught a lot of brokers stealing off the top. You be wishy washy I'm not. I have been very sucessful being this way. Yall take care God Bless"

If the rate is different, they're better at negotiating. "What is yours" is what you agreed to with the broker... if they took $10 off the top, or $1000 off the top, what does it matter? Don't run your truck for less than you think it's worth. Backdooring customers is WAY more grimy than a broker taking a 50% clip off of a load. One is a breach of contract, and the other is called capitolism.

Brokers are everyone's biggest enemy on here, yet the industry COULDN'T FUNCTION without them. Brokers are your sales force as well as your finance team. Do you have time to make 200 cold calls per day to acquire new business? Make check in calls with 100 clients, and quote 50 loads per day that you may or may not "win"?

Is Walmart going to sign up a one-man fleet to haul 10 loads over the course of a year? I think someone else answered that above... it wouldn't make sense to add that company to their ledger. It's not just about taking calls and emails from the driver; it's one more company that they owe money to. You won't haul enough for them to have a real relationship, so there's a good chance you screw them when a claim or bad situation rises (just like the brokers your screwed)

Is a 100 truck fleet going to sign up 10 mom and pop shops each day, invoice each, and work on collections from 10,000 companies that may or may NOT pay them? Oh, you use a factoring company? Good luck getting them to buy the invoice for the company with a 52 paydex! They're shortpaying you because their forklift damaged $400 of product while unloading? Good luck at filing against their bond that doesn't exist...

There's a reason brokers exist, yet everyone is so quick to bitch and moan about the money they "steal" from you, yet the only theft going on here is you stealing their accounts that, believe it or not, they probably worked hard at acquiring.

The same people who bitch about brokers are probably the same ones who use "dispatching services" and/or book loads through "agents" hahah

TLDR: STOP BOOKING CHEAP FREIGHT, AND THE CHEAP FREIGHT WILL DISAPPEAR!!!

Replied on Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 11:58 AM CST
Maybe your a broker, maybe your a carrier, well here is some food for thought, in either case your customers or the territory you operate in, used to belong to someone else, until you came along, you took it from someone else, but you don’t think anyone should do it to you?
Replied on Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 11:59 AM CST
+ 2

Mr. Falls,

Your argument to me is falling a bit short. Apparently "we" need "you", because "we" don't have the volume, and "you" do, which is why customers talk to "you" and not us. The problem with that is, my little company has bailed out brokers in a jam more times than I can count. Also, most of my previous direct customer work began when a broker, or trucking company brokering on the side to maintain capacity, came up short, and we got the work done. I have a really hard time taking loads from brokers anymore, especially if it is a one off spot, that popped up because for some odd reason there wasn't enough capacity. I throw out a rate, then get beaten with the whole "round trip rate" argument. Well, if you want it moved, pony up. Sad thing is, even if I get the rate and load, when it is all over, it pads your stats, and you continue to service the lane. The whole thing goes back to business as usual. This is the reason most truckers use the term brokers in a fashion more accustomed to swear words. I have worked with some great brokers in the past, and have never attempted to go around a broker to customer direct, but I have been cut out of a lane by a broker who just so happens to find someone who can do it cheaper, but not better. That is indeed capitalism, but is it ethical? Will I pick up the phone and bail out that broker on a lane that was given to a lowball, because suddenly he cannot cover a Saturday load? I used to say yes, work is work, and it keeps my foot in the door. But, now, I am more inclined to say no, even if I bump rate, and they are willing to pay. Sometimes you need to say no to more than just cheap freight.

Replied on Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 01:52 PM CST
Originally Posted by: David Krouse
Quote: "Bingo! I haven't loaded my wagon in weeks. Carriers not raising rates and/or parking right now are making a huge mistake."

Yeah, David. When I read comments about how guys can run cheap because their equipment is paid off, I shake my head and think 'why do these folks want to cheapen themselves and their business'. Aren't they in the trucking business to make a decent profit? Fortunately my new equipment is paid off, but that doesn't change anything. I haul at my rates and do not allow a shipper, or especiallly a broker (if I used one) to dictate what my rate willl be to haul the load. This is my business, not theirs. I do believe some folks need to change their mind set.

Replied on Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 02:42 PM CST
+ 1
Originally Posted by: JERRY ASHLEY
Quote: "Yeah, David. When I read comments about how guys can run cheap because their equipment is paid off, I shake my head and think 'why do these folks want to cheapen themselves and their business'. Aren't they in the trucking business to make a decent profit? Fortunately my new equipment is paid off, but that doesn't change anything. I haul at my rates and do not allow a shipper, or especiallly a broker (if I used one) to dictate what my rate willl be to haul the load. This is my business, not theirs. I do believe some folks need to change their mind set."

"This is my business, not theirs."

Absolutely! They certainly do. Imagine if at least 25 percent of other OOs did the same thing. Apparently they love to be the mule that everyone abuses and profits from while they beg for scraps. I must admit...I've been having a great time quoting high on these inbound calls though. The response from some of these brokers really brings a smile to my face. They act as if I called thier mothers bad names. Responding with insults and outright anger. As if their profit margin isn't already high enough most of the year. The greed is beyond culpable. I simply cannot laugh loud enough before they hang up on me. I'm going to start posting some the reactions I get on YouTube. I have a handful of trusted brokers I deal with that never let me down but most of these people are just clowns.

Replied on Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 09:56 PM CST
+ 1
Stop the whining don't use the brokers then my God stop the whining
Replied on Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:21 AM CST
What happened to all the happy talk about rates going up with the ELD mandate? And safer roads with lower insurance premiums, that you guys from the ATA, and TIA promised would follow? Now is your time to shine, step up to the mike and tell all these happy steakholders how wonderful your ideas are.
Replied on Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:37 AM CST
Originally Posted by: DAVE WINTERS
Quote: "What happened to all the happy talk about rates going up with the ELD mandate? And safer roads with lower insurance premiums, that you guys from the ATA, and TIA promised would follow? Now is your time to shine, step up to the mike and tell all these happy steakholders how wonderful your ideas are."

Hahahaha, thanks Dave! That's the best laugh I've had since this virus crud started. Did you forget about the stimulas package members of the trucking industry will be receiving?

Replied on Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 11:39 AM CST
I figured I would hand that off to you Jerry, lets hear all about it.
Replied on Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:20 PM CST

It's not for truckers. It's for ALL businesses and contractors. Could be a painter, shop owner, dentist etc etc. They make it sound like it was something put together specifically for truckers but it isn't. It's just another clever marketing lie.

https://www.dat.com/blog/post/whats-in-the-stimulus-bill-for-carriers-brokers-owner-operators

Replied on Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:39 PM CST
Seen a few articles lately where the banks that took the bailout money, suddenly tightened lending requirements, 1st time home buyers now need 20% down and a minimum credit score of 700 to be considered, so there goes the construction industry, and now infrastructure projects are also being cancelled across the country, all of our precious bailout money has been squandered away, by the elitist idiots, in a engineered take down of our economy.
Replied on Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 02:00 PM CST
+ 1

But, the Kennedy center is going to be looking better and illegals are going to be helped more.

Replied on Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 03:02 PM CST
Originally Posted by: DAVE WINTERS
Quote: "Seen a few articles lately where the banks that took the bailout money, suddenly tightened lending requirements, 1st time home buyers now need 20% down and a minimum credit score of 700 to be considered, so there goes the construction industry, and now infrastructure projects are also being cancelled across the country, all of our precious bailout money has been squandered away, by the elitist idiots, in a engineered take down of our economy."

Got a link? I couldn't find anything online about banks changing standards for first time home buyers down payment nor credit requirements.

Replied on Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 03:30 PM CST
Just google Banks tighten lending requirements, You should be able to find the stories. I believe USA Today did a story on J.P. Morgan chase tightening the standards several days ago.
Replied on Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 03:31 PM CST
Just googled it, Wall Street Journal, Barrons, and business insider all seemed to have articles on it.
Replied on Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 03:42 PM CST
Originally Posted by: JERRY ASHLEY
Quote: "Yeah, David. When I read comments about how guys can run cheap because their equipment is paid off, I shake my head and think 'why do these folks want to cheapen themselves and their business'. Aren't they in the trucking business to make a decent profit? Fortunately my new equipment is paid off, but that doesn't change anything. I haul at my rates and do not allow a shipper, or especiallly a broker (if I used one) to dictate what my rate willl be to haul the load. This is my business, not theirs. I do believe some folks need to change their mind set."

I worked my ass of to pay for my equipment and it's not going to last forever. I didn't do that to let someone else use it up to line their pockets. It's not a hobby and I don't even like doing it that much yet alone for less than respectable wage.
Replied on Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 04:12 PM CST

You are definately right. But, you know, even at my age, I still miss the driving part. Just not a lot of the headaches.

Replied on Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 05:26 PM CST
- 1
Originally Posted by: JERRY ASHLEY
Quote: "You are definately right. But, you know, even at my age, I still miss the driving part. Just not a lot of the headaches. "

What’s needed is a totally new organization, built from the ground up by small carriers, for small carriers, where only those with a MC# are allowed in. All these Facebook groups screwed up by letting everyone in, now they spend all their time bickering among themselves. OOIDA is a good organization, but they are spread too thin, worrying about company drivers has compromised the carrier side. Such a organization should recruit some retired individuals, who retired from trucking because they could prove useful in sharing their knowledge, and would be untouchable because they are retired. What are your thoughts Jerry?
Replied on Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 07:44 AM CST
+ 1

Well, Dave, remember that I've been calling for something like this for, what, over a year now? I know what you mean about OOIDA. I've been a member for several years. I even received a sales discount through Western Star because I am a member. I do not have very much respect for the ATA, because they are too busy working with / for mega carriers.

I've even volunteered to be trucking expert and would speak at an assembly of O/O's, or small company owners, if one of you would want to put a program together, for the benefit of the bulk haul community. I started driving rigs in '63 and have spent my whole adult life working in the industry. And my practicle experience counts for more than the paper I hold with both my Transportation and Business degrees.

I have been adament about trying to put forth ideas and experiences in the forums to help some of the folks in the bulk haul community. I hate seeing the low ball, or bottom of the barrel rates that have been posted on the boards. Yes, the whole trucking industry is now flooded with brokers. But, there is a way to weed a lot of them out. However, no individual or small group will be able to do it. It would take a large scale drive, possibly in one area of a state, or in a whole state, getting things started to accomplish this. Unions were formed by workers banding together in one area of the midwest, then spreading out. Some type of Bulk Haulers Association could do the same thing and work towards improving this sector. No dues would be required either.

Shippers and brokers may offer rates they are willing to pay; however, O/O's and companies deside what the load will pay to actually haul the load.

Replied on Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 07:44 AM CST
+ 1
To do what. Listen to the same guys complain every day
Replied on Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 09:25 AM CST

No, Eric. What Dave and I are discussing is something to do to improve the bulk haul sector of the trucking industry. Even with rates down right now with dry freight, although better with perishables, I'm doing goood in my business. This isn't something that would envolve listening to a guy bitch everyday.

I am sure you are doing well with not accepting any loads below $42 per ton, or $2.25 per mile round trip, which, in today's economy is where O/O's and company's should be.

Replied on Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:02 AM CST
Originally Posted by: JERRY ASHLEY
Quote: "Well, Dave, remember that I've been calling for something like this for, what, over a year now? I know what you mean about OOIDA. I've been a member for several years. I even received a sales discount through Western Star because I am a member. I do not have very much respect for the ATA, because they are too busy working with / for mega carriers. I've even volunteered to be trucking expert and would speak at an assembly of O/O's, or small company owners, if one of you would want to put a program together, for the benefit of the bulk haul community. I started driving rigs in '63 and have spent my whole adult life working in the industry. And my practicle experience counts for more than the paper I hold with both my Transportation and Business degrees. I have been adament about trying to put forth ideas and experiences in the forums to help some of the folks in the bulk haul community. I hate seeing the low ball, or bottom of the barrel rates that have been posted on the boards. Yes, the whole trucking industry is now flooded with brokers. But, there is a way to weed a lot of them out. However, no individual or small group will be able to do it. It would take a large scale drive, possibly in one area of a state, or in a whole state, getting things started to accomplish this. Unions were formed by workers banding together in one area of the midwest, then spreading out. Some type of Bulk Haulers Association could do the same thing and work towards improving this sector. No dues would be required either. Shippers and brokers may offer rates they are willing to pay; however, O/O's and companies deside what the load will pay to actually haul the load. "

For me the topic is purely theoretical, I don’t really expect it to go anywhere, but once upon a time history shows us it did work, from 1933-1979 there was a success story about unity in trucking, and history is parallel right now to the 1930’s, in fact the IMF has even acknowledged it, the supply chains and economy are Kaput, and printing trillions for bailouts will work about as well for us, as it did for the Weimar Republic, so ?
Replied on Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:18 AM CST

Dave, I understand where you are coming from. However, in my opinion, something should, and could, be started somewhere. The bloody labor wars of 1929 was a terrible thing. But, it brought workers together, with the birth of original labor unions, fighting for better working condition and wages. We don't need a union to improve rates, etc., in the bulk load community. However, it would be better for everyone if they operated on some kind of base rate no one would go below. A new standard. And one that shippers, and manufacturers, would get used to dealing with.

I enjoy writing to you and receiving your opinions.

Replied on Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:34 AM CST
Let’s not kid ourselves Jerry, the rates are going to be a challenge, but one of the main benefits a large organization has, is purchasing power, discounts on tires, fuel, parts, etc, and if we were able to organize thousands of small carriers, we would be able to use that leverage to negotiate better prices for our members, and possibly even have our own factoring service. Saving money on repair costs would even be a possible, if we were to negotiate a fleet contract with nationwide service centers, and that would offer economic gains, even if none were possible in the rate department.
Replied on Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:12 AM CST

How true, Dave. OMG, the labor rates for truck repairs are astronomical. tire costs are through the roof with some sales outlets, and the insurance industry, especially considering the increases they've hit everyone with. is terrible.

I agree with your opinion of increased buying power for members, like the OOIDA has for its members. There is no reason the same could not be offered, eventually, through the growth of an organization serving the bulk haul community. But, as I said, something should start somewhere.

I wonder if anyone in the community, reading these forums, has the same thoughts, or the sincere desire, to start to put some kind of program together. If I was younger, and was not envolved with the day to day operation of my little company, I believe I would jump on this. Finding time to help with some individual with speaking engagements, for example, even out of state, would not be a problem. Anything to help.

Replied on Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 12:16 PM CST
Originally Posted by: JERRY ASHLEY
Quote: "How true, Dave. OMG, the labor rates for truck repairs are astronomical. tire costs are through the roof with some sales outlets, and the insurance industry, especially considering the increases they've hit everyone with. is terrible. I agree with your opinion of increased buying power for members, like the OOIDA has for its members. There is no reason the same could not be offered, eventually, through the growth of an organization serving the bulk haul community. But, as I said, something should start somewhere. I wonder if anyone in the community, reading these forums, has the same thoughts, or the sincere desire, to start to put some kind of program together. If I was younger, and was not envolved with the day to day operation of my little company, I believe I would jump on this. Finding time to help with some individual with speaking engagements, for example, even out of state, would not be a problem. Anything to help."

I have been suggesting this in Canada also. Even partnering with other smaller carriers to get the bigger jobs.

Replied on Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 01:17 PM CST

Well, Charlotte, I'm not sure what you mean by "bigger jobs". What Dave and I have been discussing is a way to form an organization for the benefit of the bulk haul community that could help its members. And give a better voice with regards to this sector of the industry. Fighting for better rates, rather than dealing with rates that have been stagnent for years and have not even kept up with annual cost of living increases, would be another good reason for finding a way to band together. I don't know how things are with our great neighbors to the north; howver, since deregulation in this country, rates all over the trucking industry has suffered.

Replied on Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 03:18 PM CST
Originally Posted by: JERRY ASHLEY
Quote: "Well, Charlotte, I'm not sure what you mean by "bigger jobs". What Dave and I have been discussing is a way to form an organization for the benefit of the bulk haul community that could help its members. And give a better voice with regards to this sector of the industry. Fighting for better rates, rather than dealing with rates that have been stagnent for years and have not even kept up with annual cost of living increases, would be another good reason for finding a way to band together. I don't know how things are with our great neighbors to the north; howver, since deregulation in this country, rates all over the trucking industry has suffered."

"Bigger jobs", some shippers will go through a carrier rather than through a broker but they want you to have at least 10 trucks.

I can't agree more... My father-in-law owned a fleet of logging trucks back in the 70s & 80s. He said during the trucker's strike bullets were flying, after everything was done and over with you didn't dare get a flat as it would set you back a couple of days financially becuase the rates just plumetted.

Replied on Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 04:58 PM CST
Originally Posted by: CHARLOTTE REGNIER
Quote: ""Bigger jobs", some shippers will go through a carrier rather than through a broker but they want you to have at least 10 trucks. I can't agree more... My father-in-law owned a fleet of logging trucks back in the 70s & 80s. He said during the trucker's strike bullets were flying, after everything was done and over with you didn't dare get a flat as it would set you back a couple of days financially becuase the rates just plumetted."

Thank you for your explanation of big jobs. Since deregulation it's become a race to the bottom, to see who can haul the cheapest loads in some areas to get the driver and rig back to an area where freight (of whatever kind) pays better. The mega carriers do this with hauling this stuff for an actual loss for the load. Independents and small carriers can't afford to do this. I can't wait for the next large carrier to fail, because they've created their own bankruptsy. I've already benefited with one shipper over the loss of Celadon in Indianapolis.

Replied on Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 07:55 AM CST
For those of you lacking bookkeeping skill, here is generic industry average. I'm not big on the per mile method, I prefer a revenue/cost accounting method but this should help everyone running by the seat of their pants . https://truckingresearch.org/2019/11/04/7851/
Replied on Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:41 AM CST
Originally Posted by: MICHAEL TSCHIDA
Quote: "For those of you lacking bookkeeping skill, here is generic industry average. I'm not big on the per mile method, I prefer a revenue/cost accounting method but this should help everyone running by the seat of their pants . https://truckingresearch.org/2019/11/04/7851/"

Your included article echoed what I've stated in other forums. The average nationwide cost of operating an 18 wheeler is $1.82 per mile. Whether a trucker has older equipment, or it's paid off, has absolutely nothing to do with rates. If you can't gross $1,000, or better, on a daily basis, for a full day's work, you might as well hang it up. Whether you charge $42 a ton, $2.25 per mile round trip, or $100 per hour for any kind of local work at 200 miles or less, considering today's economy, and prices for things, this is what you should make. Remember, this industry has never received annual cost of living increases.

Of course, then you have the stupid hobby truckers who will haul for fuel costs. Duh!!

Replied on Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 08:05 AM CST

i find it funny. That non of the brokers have taken a % cut or fee cut etc whatever they like to call it then try to throw these 1.79 1.50 a mile loads on us. You'd think they expect us to take a cut the would as well somewhere.

Replied on Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 09:18 PM CST
Originally Posted by: JUSTIN ALLISON
Quote: "i find it funny. That non of the brokers have taken a % cut or fee cut etc whatever they like to call it then try to throw these 1.79 1.50 a mile loads on us. You'd think they expect us to take a cut the would as well somewhere. "

They will when they have to. But not until...