Cat c13

Mar 19, 2020 at 04:00 PM CST + 3 - 3
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. What do guys think about the c13 cat engine in ‘04? I’ve been with Detroit and am new to cat

Replied on Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 09:57 PM CST + 3
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. I'd take a C-12 over a C-13 if you're trying to save weight, seen a couple of guys struggle to keep them going. I always ran CATs years ago and had good luck, except the C-13, Yellow motors are always many thousands of $$ more to fix. If I was to start again, I'd run a Detroit or Cummins...I vote No on the C-13, Just my 2 cents...

Replied on Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 09:58 PM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Is it a twin turbo or an ACERT? They're better than most engine options in that year but not as reliable as the C12. It would have intake actuators possibly in that year which is better than early ERG systems but still somewhat problematic.

Replied on Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 09:18 AM CST + 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. We have gotten rid of all of our C-13's.They will crack a head with any kind of overheating. We switched them over to C-12's and have been very happy with the results. I would suggest C-12 or C-15 if you want a Cat.

Replied on Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 01:43 PM CST + 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Best CAT motor was the 6NZ! Powerhouse and if you drove them nice, the fuel milage was not horrible.

Replied on Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 05:21 PM CST + 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. No question a C12 over a C13. I own several C12’s and that’s not by accident. Also, don’t believe what everyone says about CAT broadly being more expensive to repair. While that IS true for a 3406/C15, it is not the case for a C12. The C13 is still rather expensive to repair in comparison as it’s more complex than a C12...for emissions reasons. What do you haul and what’s the gross weight?

Replied on Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 05:21 PM CST

+ 1

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

No question a C12 over a C13. I own several C12’s and that’s not by accident. Also, don’t believe what everyone says about CAT broadly being more expensive to repair. While that IS true for a 3406/C15, it is not the case for a C12. The C13 is still rather expensive to repair in comparison as it’s more complex than a C12...for emissions reasons. What do you haul and what’s the gross weight?

Replied on Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 09:26 AM CST + 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Thanks. I’m pulling hoppers running 80000 plus

Replied on Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 06:18 PM CST - 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Joseph, I agree, the c12 is pretty rock solid. But I'm with ed 100 percent. 6nz is a seriously faithful machine. I'll sell ya a 379 with one in it pretty reasonable

Replied on Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 09:50 PM CST + 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. There’s not a damn thing wrong with a c13. They are a solid workhorse.

Replied on Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 07:51 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. 6nz or c15 are good power best mileage is 62 mpg million plus miles before overhauling neither like to run warm got both with autoshift triple-on both ends 98000 and the 90 day is 6.1-6.4. You run it at 70 mpg is 4.9-5.1.

Replied on Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 11:06 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "Joseph, I agree, the c12 is pretty rock solid. But I'm with ed 100 percent. 6nz is a seriously faithful machine. I'll sell ya a 379 with one in it pretty reasonable " What year is your pete? Can I get some pictures?

Replied on Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:38 PM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. 2004 379. 2003 6nz. What's your email?

Replied on Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 10:25 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "2004 379. 2003 6nz. What's your email?" [email protected]

Replied on Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 07:47 AM CST - 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Cat motors are so great they don't make them anymore

Replied on Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 04:31 PM CST - 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "Cat motors are so great they don't make them anymore" What are you getting at? What's your personal experience with cat?

Replied on Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 07:00 AM CST + 2
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "Cat motors are so great they don't make them anymore" CAT doesn't make engines? My guess is that you dont realize how foolish you just made yourself look. Go pump some DEF...your CAT experetise is not needed in this thred.

Replied on Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 07:01 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. I’ve got a C13 in an 04 379, I’ve got it set at 490hp with the single turbo conversion and the VVA’s backed off. Good running little motor. Avg mileage 5.25-6. Need to make sure and run the over head every 100k and change the oil religiously. Also need to run the 192 thermostat and not the 210 C13’s will crack heads at 230.

Replied on Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 07:01 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Well 3406. C12. C13

Replied on Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 01:35 PM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "Cat motors are so great they don't make them anymore" Not true

Replied on Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 02:38 PM CST + 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Order a new Pete with a new cat it then

Replied on Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 08:37 PM CST + 4
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "Order a new Pete with a new cat it then" Eric, CAT made great on-highway engines and that's widely accepted as fact by the industry; especially true for the pre-emissions (non-acert) engines. Dare I say, Pete would sell MORE new trucks if the EPA would allow CAT to produce NEW 3406E's and C-12's for them. Suggesting CAT was anything less than LEGENDARY in the on-highway segment is FAKE NEWS! Cheers

Replied on Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 08:37 PM CST

+ 4

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

Quote: "Order a new Pete with a new cat it then"

Eric, CAT made great on-highway engines and that's widely accepted as fact by the industry; especially true for the pre-emissions (non-acert) engines. Dare I say, Pete would sell MORE new trucks if the EPA would allow CAT to produce NEW 3406E's and C-12's for them. Suggesting CAT was anything less than LEGENDARY in the on-highway segment is FAKE NEWS! Cheers

Replied on Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 07:17 AM CST + 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Eric, cat still makes engines. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they are still one of the biggest diesel engine manufacturers. Just not highway, so my stupid comparison in response to your statements....AC/DC doesn't make music anymore, that doesn't change the fact that their music is still the best

Replied on Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 11:01 AM CST - 2
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. You have off highway equipment

Replied on Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 01:10 PM CST + 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. When asked your cat experience, you said 3406, c 12 and c 13. What is your experience with them. Which 3406? What problems did you have?

Replied on Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 09:23 AM CST + 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "When asked your cat experience, you said 3406, c 12 and c 13. What is your experience with them. Which 3406? What problems did you have?" Would start with 1674 and then 1693 . Some new caterpillar boat engines have found they way into new kits and the lists go on. Cats are not dead.

Replied on Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 08:02 AM CST - 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. You’re going to regret buying a truck with a cat in it I get the point everybody likes cat engines I do too until it’s repaired time and fuel mileage is not great on them unless you run light loads and you baby That thing down the road I’m just telling you to truth I’m sure lotta guys would hate seeing that LOL good luck

Replied on Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 08:41 PM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. I paid a little over 9k after the head gasket blew on my 3406e to rebuild and that included a new head from the CAT dealer, a thicker spacer plate and all new bearings rolled in. The liners were left because they were in such good shape. The crosshatching was still very pronounced with zero signs of any glazing or scoring. I average over 6mpg and it's tuned to 750hp/2250tq still on the stock turbo. Not bad for a pre-emissions 14.6 liter BIG BLOCK that happily crosses the Appalachians at 80k regularly with over 1.5 millions miles on the clock. I'm not saying CAT is the best but blanket statements like yours and Eric's are just plain ignorant. These threads are always such a joke. They turn into arguments over opinions. When the fact is Detroit, Cummins and CAT all have their pros and cons. No different than Chevy vs Ford, Mopar or Honda vs Toyota etc etc.

Replied on Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 08:41 PM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

I paid a little over 9k after the head gasket blew on my 3406e to rebuild and that included a new head from the CAT dealer, a thicker spacer plate and all new bearings rolled in. The liners were left because they were in such good shape. The crosshatching was still very pronounced with zero signs of any glazing or scoring. I average over 6mpg and it's tuned to 750hp/2250tq still on the stock turbo. Not bad for a pre-emissions 14.6 liter BIG BLOCK that happily crosses the Appalachians at 80k regularly with over 1.5 millions miles on the clock. I'm not saying CAT is the best but blanket statements like yours and Eric's are just plain ignorant. These threads are always such a joke. They turn into arguments over opinions. When the fact is Detroit, Cummins and CAT all have their pros and cons. No different than Chevy vs Ford, Mopar or Honda vs Toyota etc etc.

Replied on Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 08:41 PM CST + 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. I can't disagree seth. They are spendy. But you get what you pay for and that's a fact. As far as fuel economy, my current ifta quarter is 5.99. I pull a 3 axle high side hopper and a food grade tanker. I don't baby it much, 68 to 70 mph. If my dad drives that 6nz he gets 7mpg. I look at it from the perspective of resale value as well. Harley Davidson is an over priced bike, but you can sell a well maintained one 5 years later for a pile more money than the competition. Also, there's hardly any shops in the country that cant work on an old cat just because of the simplicity of the design, in my opinion....

Replied on Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 08:41 PM CST

+ 1

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

I can't disagree seth. They are spendy. But you get what you pay for and that's a fact. As far as fuel economy, my current ifta quarter is 5.99. I pull a 3 axle high side hopper and a food grade tanker. I don't baby it much, 68 to 70 mph. If my dad drives that 6nz he gets 7mpg. I look at it from the perspective of resale value as well. Harley Davidson is an over priced bike, but you can sell a well maintained one 5 years later for a pile more money than the competition. Also, there's hardly any shops in the country that cant work on an old cat just because of the simplicity of the design, in my opinion....

Replied on Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 08:41 PM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "You’re going to regret buying a truck with a cat in it I get the point everybody likes cat engines I do too until it’s repaired time and fuel mileage is not great on them unless you run light loads and you baby That thing down the road I’m just telling you to truth I’m sure lotta guys would hate seeing that LOL good luck" Seth, to group all CAT engines together when speaking about fuel mileage is not helpful to anyone. I own two trucks and both have C-12's; 7.5 mpg on ALL miles. Furthermore, maintenance on a C-12 is not any more expensive than a Series 60. All said, if a guy wants/needs 550+ HP big block it's going to cost him fuel...that's where the power is derived. Cheers! To the original poster, I'd recommend staying away from brand loyalty and looking specifically for trucks with the engine(s) you feel have proven reliability

Replied on Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 08:41 PM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

Quote: "You’re going to regret buying a truck with a cat in it I get the point everybody likes cat engines I do too until it’s repaired time and fuel mileage is not great on them unless you run light loads and you baby That thing down the road I’m just telling you to truth I’m sure lotta guys would hate seeing that LOL good luck"

Seth, to group all CAT engines together when speaking about fuel mileage is not helpful to anyone. I own two trucks and both have C-12's; 7.5 mpg on ALL miles. Furthermore, maintenance on a C-12 is not any more expensive than a Series 60. All said, if a guy wants/needs 550+ HP big block it's going to cost him fuel...that's where the power is derived. Cheers!

**To the original poster, I'd recommend staying away from brand loyalty and looking specifically for trucks with the engine(s) you feel have proven reliability**

Replied on Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 01:12 PM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. There finally my point they all have good points and some bad every motor has them. It just what your preference is

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 07:43 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "I paid a little over 9k after the head gasket blew on my 3406e to rebuild and that included a new head from the CAT dealer, a thicker spacer plate and all new bearings rolled in. The liners were left because they were in such good shape. The crosshatching was still very pronounced with zero signs of any glazing or scoring. I average over 6mpg and it's tuned to 750hp/2250tq still on the stock turbo. Not bad for a pre-emissions 14.6 liter BIG BLOCK that happily crosses the Appalachians at 80k regularly with over 1.5 millions miles on the clock. I'm not saying CAT is the best but blanket statements like yours and Eric's are just plain ignorant. These threads are always such a joke. They turn into arguments over opinions. When the fact is Detroit, Cummins and CAT all have their pros and cons. No different than Chevy vs Ford, Mopar or Honda vs Toyota etc etc. " You didn’t mention pistons. Surly you put new pistons and wrist pins in. No matter what the make of engine broken pistons and wrist pins are the cause of a catastrophe break down. Even with your slow speed, that you referenced in a previous post it would be Chancey to not replace pistons and liners , you looked at the in side wear but you didn’t see what electrolysis has done to the outside, cracked liners are also common on high mile engine or even at low miles on the much over rated beloved 6NZ . One and a half million miles is excellent, Gemini how much do you expect???? Wish you good luck, as it seems you are already having.

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 07:43 AM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

Quote: "I paid a little over 9k after the head gasket blew on my 3406e to rebuild and that included a new head from the CAT dealer, a thicker spacer plate and all new bearings rolled in. The liners were left because they were in such good shape. The crosshatching was still very pronounced with zero signs of any glazing or scoring. I average over 6mpg and it's tuned to 750hp/2250tq still on the stock turbo. Not bad for a pre-emissions 14.6 liter BIG BLOCK that happily crosses the Appalachians at 80k regularly with over 1.5 millions miles on the clock. I'm not saying CAT is the best but blanket statements like yours and Eric's are just plain ignorant. These threads are always such a joke. They turn into arguments over opinions. When the fact is Detroit, Cummins and CAT all have their pros and cons. No different than Chevy vs Ford, Mopar or Honda vs Toyota etc etc. "

You didn’t mention pistons. Surly you put new pistons and wrist pins in. No matter what the make of engine broken pistons and wrist pins are the cause of a catastrophe break down. Even with your slow speed, that you referenced in a previous post it would be Chancey to not replace pistons and liners , you looked at the in side wear but you didn’t see what electrolysis has done to the outside, cracked liners are also common on high mile engine or even at low miles on the much over rated beloved 6NZ . One and a half million miles is excellent, Gemini how much do you expect???? Wish you good luck, as it seems you are already having.

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 07:43 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "Seth, to group all CAT engines together when speaking about fuel mileage is not helpful to anyone. I own two trucks and both have C-12's; 7.5 mpg on ALL miles. Furthermore, maintenance on a C-12 is not any more expensive than a Series 60. All said, if a guy wants/needs 550+ HP big block it's going to cost him fuel...that's where the power is derived. Cheers! To the original poster, I'd recommend staying away from brand loyalty and looking specifically for trucks with the engine(s) you feel have proven reliability" What kind of setup you running to get that milage?? I cant seem to get better then 5.9 to 6.1 on all miles. Just curious Thank you

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 07:43 AM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

Quote: "Seth, to group all CAT engines together when speaking about fuel mileage is not helpful to anyone. I own two trucks and both have C-12's; 7.5 mpg on ALL miles. Furthermore, maintenance on a C-12 is not any more expensive than a Series 60. All said, if a guy wants/needs 550+ HP big block it's going to cost him fuel...that's where the power is derived. Cheers! **To the original poster, I'd recommend staying away from brand loyalty and looking specifically for trucks with the engine(s) you feel have proven reliability**"

What kind of setup you running to get that milage?? I cant seem to get better then 5.9 to 6.1 on all miles. Just curious Thank you

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 09:27 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "You didn’t mention pistons. Surly you put new pistons and wrist pins in. No matter what the make of engine broken pistons and wrist pins are the cause of a catastrophe break down. Even with your slow speed, that you referenced in a previous post it would be Chancey to not replace pistons and liners , you looked at the in side wear but you didn’t see what electrolysis has done to the outside, cracked liners are also common on high mile engine or even at low miles on the much over rated beloved 6NZ . One and a half million miles is excellent, Gemini how much do you expect???? Wish you good luck, as it seems you are already having." I totally agree but the piston packs were done not long before the head gasket blew from the previous owner's shop so I felt pretty good about rolling the dice on them. As far as "slow speed"...what do you mean by that? I usually do the posted speed limit. However, the truck gets romped on when it's necessary. I do take it easy 90 percent of the time but I wouldn't consider the speed limit to be "slow". Or maybe we have two different version of slow here. My cowboy days have long since passed if that's what you're getting at. I wouldn't say I'm having good luck either. That head gasket blew within the first fews months of putting the truck on the road. It was an expensive repair that forced me to run pretty hard to recoup the losses back then. Maybe be both have different versions of luck too! Nah, it's all about perspective in the end.

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 09:27 AM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

Quote: "You didn’t mention pistons. Surly you put new pistons and wrist pins in. No matter what the make of engine broken pistons and wrist pins are the cause of a catastrophe break down. Even with your slow speed, that you referenced in a previous post it would be Chancey to not replace pistons and liners , you looked at the in side wear but you didn’t see what electrolysis has done to the outside, cracked liners are also common on high mile engine or even at low miles on the much over rated beloved 6NZ . One and a half million miles is excellent, Gemini how much do you expect???? Wish you good luck, as it seems you are already having."

I totally agree but the piston packs were done not long before the head gasket blew from the previous owner's shop so I felt pretty good about rolling the dice on them. As far as "slow speed"...what do you mean by that? I usually do the posted speed limit. However, the truck gets romped on when it's necessary. I do take it easy 90 percent of the time but I wouldn't consider the speed limit to be "slow". Or maybe we have two different version of slow here. My cowboy days have long since passed if that's what you're getting at. I wouldn't say I'm having good luck either. That head gasket blew within the first fews months of putting the truck on the road. It was an expensive repair that forced me to run pretty hard to recoup the losses back then. Maybe be both have different versions of luck too! Nah, it's all about perspective in the end.

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 02:15 PM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "What kind of setup you running to get that milage?? I cant seem to get better then 5.9 to 6.1 on all miles. Just curious Thank you" Zach, are you running a C-12? if so, please reply with your truck info, running lane etc. 1998 Pete C-12 430hp/1650tq (early file) 13 speed w/3.70's on low pro 24.5's. I'm usually ~75k and run the midwest; I control speed/rpm (63-65) for mileage.

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 02:15 PM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

Quote: "What kind of setup you running to get that milage?? I cant seem to get better then 5.9 to 6.1 on all miles. Just curious Thank you"

Zach, are you running a C-12? if so, please reply with your truck info, running lane etc.

1998 Pete

C-12 430hp/1650tq (early file)

13 speed w/3.70's on low pro 24.5's.

I'm usually ~75k and run the midwest; I control speed/rpm (63-65) for mileage.

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 04:13 PM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "I totally agree but the piston packs were done not long before the head gasket blew from the previous owner's shop so I felt pretty good about rolling the dice on them. As far as "slow speed"...what do you mean by that? I usually do the posted speed limit. However, the truck gets romped on when it's necessary. I do take it easy 90 percent of the time but I wouldn't consider the speed limit to be "slow". Or maybe we have two different version of slow here. My cowboy days have long since passed if that's what you're getting at. I wouldn't say I'm having good luck either. That head gasket blew within the first fews months of putting the truck on the road. It was an expensive repair that forced me to run pretty hard to recoup the losses back then. Maybe be both have different versions of luck too! Nah, it's all about perspective in the end. " Hi David Can’t find your DOT #

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 04:13 PM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

Quote: "I totally agree but the piston packs were done not long before the head gasket blew from the previous owner's shop so I felt pretty good about rolling the dice on them. As far as "slow speed"...what do you mean by that? I usually do the posted speed limit. However, the truck gets romped on when it's necessary. I do take it easy 90 percent of the time but I wouldn't consider the speed limit to be "slow". Or maybe we have two different version of slow here. My cowboy days have long since passed if that's what you're getting at. I wouldn't say I'm having good luck either. That head gasket blew within the first fews months of putting the truck on the road. It was an expensive repair that forced me to run pretty hard to recoup the losses back then. Maybe be both have different versions of luck too! Nah, it's all about perspective in the end. "

Hi David Can’t find your DOT #

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 04:32 PM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "We have gotten rid of all of our C-13's.They will crack a head with any kind of overheating. We switched them over to C-12's and have been very happy with the results. I would suggest C-12 or C-15 if you want a Cat. " I agree. My dad ran a c-13 for a few years, and he made the switch over to a c-15 and hasn't looked back. Stronger engine, and easy to work on.

Replied on Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 04:32 PM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

Quote: "We have gotten rid of all of our C-13's.They will crack a head with any kind of overheating. We switched them over to C-12's and have been very happy with the results. I would suggest C-12 or C-15 if you want a Cat. "

I agree. My dad ran a c-13 for a few years, and he made the switch over to a c-15 and hasn't looked back. Stronger engine, and easy to work on.

Replied on Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 08:12 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "Hi David Can’t find your DOT #" You aren't looking too hard then.